The question cessationists must answer.

AbbaLove · Nov 13, 2018

Anto9us said:
-- a Continuationist need not speak in tongues themselves; they simply have a theological position that does not propose that prophecy, tongues and word of knowledge have "ceased".

Expressed like this ... Continuationists/Continualists believe that the nine supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) are just as active now as they were among the 1st Century Apostles. In addition Continationists/Continualists also believe the following Giftings of the Holy Spirit mentioned by the Apostle Paul are just as valid now as they were among the 1st Century Congregations of Charismatic Believers...

Romans 12:6-8
6 We have different Gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your Gift is prophecy, use your Gift in proportion to your faith.
7 If service, devote yourself to serving; if teaching, devote yourself to teaching;
8 if exhorting, with encouragement; if giving, with generosity; if leading, with diligence; if mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then Gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

RDKirk · Nov 13, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Expressed like this ... Continuationists/Continualists believe that the nine supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) are just as active now as they were among the 1st Century Apostles.

To say, "just as active," not necessarily. Even Jesus faced limitations:

And he did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

We certainly realize that the level of activity is commensurate with other factors, such as the level of faith and being in the right time and right place.

But the supernatural gifts have not been withdrawn or ceased and are still available.

In addition Continationists/Continualists also believe the following Giftings of the Holy Spirit mentioned by the Apostle Paul are just as valid now as they were among the 1st Century Congregations of Charismatic Believers...

Romans 12:6-8
6 We have different Gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your Gift is prophecy, use your Gift in proportion to your faith.
7 If service, devote yourself to serving; if teaching, devote yourself to teaching;
8 if exhorting, with encouragement; if giving, with generosity; if leading, with diligence;
if mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then Gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

I don't see how anyone can posit that the Church can survive as the functioning and effective Body of Christ without the giftings of the Holy Spirit. Without those, we're just another Greek fraternity at best.

W2L · Nov 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
I don't see how anyone can posit that the Church can survive as the functioning and effective Body of Christ without the giftings of the Holy Spirit. Without those, we're just another Greek fraternity at best.

How is the church functioning with those things? Catholics claim to have the authority, so do EO and everyone else too. Do you see why i dont believe in apostles, prophets, and healers?

Hillsage · Nov 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
Let's remember that the ranks of "Continuationists" includes Roman Catholics, btw. Catholics are still "charismatic" with a small "c" (and some speak in tongues).

Cessationists are not by any means a majority of Christianity.

I know several 'prayer tongue' speaking Catholics here in our city of 28,000. And they were led into that experience by the CHARISMATIC order of nuns down in Amarillo, Texas. They came up here to minister at one of the local RCC churches and 'some' Catholics were actually interested in 'more' than ringing their religious bell of; "I'm suffering for Jesus because I warm a pew on Sunday".
dljcsisters | A Franciscan Charismatic Religious Community

And in the 70's when the outpouring of the Spirit truly birthed the Charismatic move (distinguishing itself from the Pentecostal move of a hundred years earlier) there was a yearly Charismatic gathering at Notre Dame which drew up to 50,000 Holy Spirit baptized tongue talking Catholics. A Lutheran friend/brother of mine actually went there one year just to see what was going on. He was impressed and said it was real.

The amazing thing was, in that situation, he couldn't tell a Catholic 'tongue' from a Lutheran 'tongue'.....cause it's of God and it is SPIRITUAL and bypassed the carnal mind.

RDKirk · Nov 13, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Agree!

It's my experience that "Pentecostals" put more emphasis on "speaking in an unknown tongue" to the point that they believe every true Pentecostal should be given the "Gift of Tongues" before any other supernatural Gift. Maybe, that's because as a "Pentecostal" they're taught to desire the "Gift of Tongues". Although it's my understanding that it's the Holy Spirit that decides who gets what Gift and not "Pentecostals" desiring first and foremost the "Gift of Tongues."

It's my understanding that a "charismatic" isn't so desirous of getting just the tongue Gift and may desire the "Gift of Discernment" or the "Gift of Knowledge" or another "supernatural Gift" before receiving their private prayer language ... but i could be wrong.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a private prayer language (unknown tongue, 1 Corinthians 14:2) given more by His Spirit with the intent that the recipient's desire is as a Prayer Warrior for intercessory prayer?

I don't know that the Holy Spirit is that constrained.

When someone says, "I've been a follower of Jesus for X years," I'm always tempted to ask, "Really? Where are some of the places Jesus has taken you?"

I plan to recount a couple of the places Jesus took me some time later in this thread. But at one point when we attended National Church of God just outside DC, I asked the Lord why I did not speak in tongues, and the Lord answered, "With all that you've seen...why do you need to? Who do you want to impress?"

Deborah D · Nov 13, 2018

NBB said:
lol...of course he did

NBB, There will always be mockers who ridicule what God does. What is sad is that I don't think they will be mocking on Judgment Day.

RDKirk · Nov 13, 2018

W2L said:
How is the church functioning with those things? Catholics claim to have the authority, so do EO and everyone else too. Do you see why i dont believe in apostles, prophets, and healers?

So, out of the following scriptures, which do you say are no longer effective?

And why do you think those particular ones are no longer effective?

Or do you claim than none of them is any longer effective?

Romans 12:6-8
6 We have different Gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your Gift is prophecy, use your Gift in proportion to your faith.
7 If service, devote yourself to serving; if teaching, devote yourself to teaching;
8 if exhorting, with encouragement; if giving, with generosity; if leading, with diligence; if mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then Gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

W2L · Nov 13, 2018

So if we still have apostles, why is the church divided over catholicism, calvinism, lutheranism and other isms? Tell me why these people cant agree if they are following real apostles?

W2L · Nov 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
So, out of the following scriptures, which do you say are no longer effective?

And why do you think those particular ones are no longer effective?

Or do you claim than none of them is any longer effective?

Romans 12:6-8
6 We have different Gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your Gift is prophecy, use your Gift in proportion to your faith.
7 If service, devote yourself to serving; if teaching, devote yourself to teaching;
8 if exhorting, with encouragement; if giving, with generosity; if leading, with diligence; if mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then Gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Tell me, which church has real apostles? It sure cant be all of them otherwise they would be in agreement with each other, but they're not.

RDKirk · Nov 13, 2018

W2L said:
So if we still have apostles, why is the church divided over catholicism, calvinism, lutheranism and other isms? Tell me why these people cant agree if they are following real apostles?

Now, that sounds like something an atheist would say.

"If Jesus is true, why is the church divided over catholicism, calvinism, lutheranism and other isms? Tell me why these people cant agree if they are following a real Christ?"

You sound just like an atheist there.

RDKirk · Nov 13, 2018

W2L said:
Tell me, which church has real apostles? It sure cant be all of them otherwise they would be in agreement with each other, but they're not.

You didn't answer my question, which was a very specific "select from the list" question.

But you did ask the exact same question in response than an atheist would ask--and do ask, right in these forums.

Deborah D · Nov 13, 2018

Hillsage said:
I know several 'prayer tongue' speaking Catholics here in our city of 28,000. And they were led into that experience by the CHARISMATIC order of nuns down in Amarillo, Texas. They came up here to minister at one of the local RCC churches and 'some' Catholics were actually interested in 'more' than ringing their religious bell of; "I'm suffering for Jesus because I warm a pew on Sunday".
dljcsisters | A Franciscan Charismatic Religious Community

And in the 70's when the outpouring of the Spirit truly birthed the Charismatic move (distinguishing itself from the Pentecostal move of a hundred years earlier) there was a yearly Charismatic gathering at Notre Dame which drew up to 50,000 Holy Spirit baptized tongue talking Catholics. A Lutheran friend/brother of mine actually went there one year just to see what was going on. He was impressed and said it was real.

The amazing thing was, in that situation, he couldn't tell a Catholic 'tongue' from a Lutheran 'tongue'.....cause it's of God and it is SPIRITUAL and bypassed the carnal mind.

Hillsage, I wouldn't rule out that God would give Roman Catholics the gifts of the Spirit, but some Catholic doctrines are VERY unscriptural. In order for someone to join the Roman Catholic Church, they have to agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This past month, I've spent time reading some of this catechism and other Catholic documents, and I've been shocked at just how unscriptural some their dogma is. I know this is not a thread for addressing this, and I don't mean to sound like I hate Catholics. I don't! But it seems that you may be promoting Roman Catholicism, and I'm concerned about this.

RDKirk · Nov 13, 2018

Deborah D said:
Hillsage, I wouldn't rule out that God would give Roman Catholics the gifts of the Spirit, but some Catholic doctrines are VERY unscriptural. In order for someone to join the Roman Catholic Church, they have to agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This past month, I've spent time reading some of this catechism and other Catholic documents, and I've been shocked at just how unscriptural some their dogma is. I know this is not a thread for addressing this, and I don't mean to sound like I hate Catholics. I don't! But it seems that you may be promoting Roman Catholicism, and I'm concerned about this.

I think the Holy Spirit is less concerned about details of doctrine than most of us.

The Holy Spirit didn't even let Peter finish his sermon before He went ahead and filled Cornelius.

Peter was like, "Wait, I'm not done yet," and the Holy Spirit was like, "I'm 'way ahead of you...catch up."

W2L · Nov 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
Now, that sounds like something an atheist would say.

"If Jesus is true, why is the church divided over catholicism, calvinism, lutheranism and other isms? Tell me why these people cant agree if they are following a real Christ?"

You sound just like an atheist there.

Bro, you accused me earlier of deflection, and now you are doing that to me. Cant answer the simple question instead of deflecting?

W2L · Nov 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
You didn't answer my question, which was a very specific "select from the list" question.

But you did ask the exact same question in response than an atheist would ask--and do ask, right in these forums.

You can slander my character but it wont answer my question. I ask which apostles are real and you cant answer it. Your whole argument falls apart if you do.

Anto9us · Nov 13, 2018

Alithis said:
(I guess those that thought they were drunk just heard gibberish and were perhaps the cessationist ancestors ..)

rofl !

"cessationist ancestors" -- perhaps Hillsage might call them incipient idiotes !!

I don't think we will know in this lifetime the exact difference between whether the believers at Pentecost actually spoke in the various languages of the visitors of Jerusalem or whether the visitors were enabled to understand what the believers were saying. There at least fifteen different nationalities/areas mentioned that the visitors were from:

Act 2:9
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

According to Acts 2:1, the believers were all in one place, some think it was Solomon's Porch, but in any case, they were all together.

The idea of Nathaniel in one place speaking Arabic and Simon the Zealot in a different place speaking Egyptian, etc, is not really supported.
So you would have fifteen human languages being spoke all at once in the same place.

The greater miracle to me is that the visitors were enabled to hear/understand what the believers were saying in their own language even if the believers were actually speaking in a prayer language or heavenly tongue. It's either that or 15 languages spoken all at once by the believers in the same place.

YeshuaFan · Nov 13, 2018

Alithis said:
wof is only a section of a section of charismatic circles .. im not WOF i'm of the faith of Jesus .and IN the faith of Jesus - i test myself on this often. -the lord showed me after 30 years in the church that i was not IN the faith (being in Church does not equate to being in the faith .)
there are "principles in the WOF movement that are directly from the bible . but sometimes used with wrongful intent . (such as the misused term name it and claim it when one wants a flash car -ie- your never going to walk on water when the lord told you to take the dirt path not cross the water )
the biggest error that threatens wof is that it is .. faith in faith . not always faith in God .

WoF places faith in their faith, and not in God, as they see that we can order God to give us the desires of our hearts, as even he is bound to law of faith! They also see God as biggest failure, as he let Satan steal dominion from Adam, and got Himself shut out of earth!

Anto9us · Nov 13, 2018

Act 2:12
And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

So these OTHERS would have been visitors from the SAME AREAS as those who heard their own languages, yet thought the believers were amethousia (drunk). If they were speaking in actual languages; why would they be thought to be drunken?

YeshuaFan · Nov 13, 2018

Deborah D said:
YeshuaFan, I find your assessment to be very sloppy. Of course, I can't speak for every WOF teacher out there, so I won't try.

The ones I've heard and read teach that we can claim God's promises. IOW, if God has named it, we can claim it by faith because God is faithful and all-powerful. I agree with this, but I have found that we have to be careful not to expect God to fulfill His promises as we think He would or should or in our timing.

Also, I haven't heard any teach the belief that God spoke something out of nothing. I have heard them say that "we can have what we say" based on Mark 11:22-24, which says,

Jesus replied to them, “Have faith in God. I assure you: If anyone says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all the things you pray and ask for — believe that you have received them, and you will have them...."

Again, this is based on faith. The possible problem I see with this thinking is that I have found that this only works when God has given me the gift of faith for something. A footnote in one of my Bibles says that "Have faith in God" may be translated "Have the faith OF God." I believe this is the gift of faith (1 Cor. 12:9) When HE gives me this kind of faith, I KNOW that the "mountain will move" if I command it to.

One example of this is when God gave me the faith to pray for my daughter's healing. I KNEW when I prayed for her that she would be healed, and symptoms of her ailment that she had experienced for years were alleviated within 30 minutes. (I spoke of this in an earlier post.) She was recently tested for the ailment, and testing showed that the ailment is gone.

The issue of visualization can be tricky. Most of us have heard that New Age/Eastern mysticism utilizes this practice, but the devil is a copycat and tries to copy what the Holy Spirit does in order to deceive us. The fact is that the Holy Spirit sometimes shows us something in our minds, such as visions. In the Old Testament, prophets were called "seers." (See 1 Chron. 26:28 and 1 Sam 9:9.) God sometimes gives a vision, and the person SEES what the Holy Spirit is showing him. This can be in the form of a prophetic word such as in the case of John in Revelation. But also, I believe God gives visions for other reasons. When God gave me the faith to pray for my daughter's healing, the Holy Spirit gave me a picture of the affected body part in my mind.

Wow! I've never heard or read the one that "Jesus died a sinner...." You'll have to offer proof for that one. That is clearly heresy, but I would like to see who has taught that, if any WOF teacher ever has.

Fred price teaches that Jesus died spiritually while in the garden, while Kenneth Copemland teaches that he became the snake upon the Cross, became the nature of satan Himself, and so had to get born again in hell!
And woF hang their theology hats upon the verse that God spoke into existence things that were not not, so we can now also! they elevate us to being same as Jesus, as Hagin stated that we can be just as much an incarnation of god as he was if we learn the Faith rules, and that God begat little gods in his own image!

Anto9us · Nov 13, 2018

I don't know how WOF keeps coming into this thread - seems off topic - but since yall are going to talk about it -- WHAT IS IT? Are these TV people like Kenneth Copeland?

The question cessationists must answer.

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