The question cessationists must answer.

[Righttruth]

You do whatever the Holy Spirit leads you to do, and by God's grace, I'll do as the Spirit leads me to do!

Gibberish talk is out person's spirit, nothing to do with the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

 

[Billy Evmur]

To be specific, the gibberish talk ceased, the rest has continued

Some folks talk gibberish in English.

 

[Righttruth]

Some folks talk gibberish in English.

I did not know that we have languages in gibberish talk!

 

[Deborah D]

Gibberish talk is out person's spirit, nothing to do with the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Who said ANYTHING about "gibberish?” I’m talking about praying in the Spirit.

 

[Alithis]

Edit: I'm not sure what you're saying. If by "gibberish" you mean praying in the Spirit, I completely disagree.

id relax .. he often uses that terminology to goad us - i see so much very useless theology on here based upon zero experience . its like everyone has 1000 opinions but so few actually go out and do what the lord Jesus said to do . but they have an opinion about (what they do not see )what is actually their own disobedience .. the western church is filed with the theology of unbelief..

the theology of unbelief is when we build a theology based on what we experienced rather then change our experience to match what God says . its a defeatist theological foundation instead of a persevering overcoming one.
most common is healing --a person prays for the sick.. does not see them healed so goes away and makes up a theology to explain away what didnt happen .. a theology based upon unbelief . instead of going back to the lord and seeking him to find out WHY they did not get healed according to gods word . because God does not change - so its us getting it wrong ..not him etc

 

[Alithis]

Alithis, may the Lord Jesus richly bless the work He's given you to do! Do you minister in Fiji?

at present we do and will do so wherever we are - seek First the kingdom of God

 

[Alithis]

Just a personal vitriolic diatribe. So I won't be responding.

lol didnt ask you too but thanks for the response

 

[Deborah D]

id relax .. he often uses that terminology to goad us - i see so much very useless theology on here based upon zero experience . its like everyone has 1000 opinions but so few actually go out and do what the lord Jesus said to do . but they have an opinion about (what they do not see )what is actually their own disobedience .. the western church is filed with the theology of unbelief..

the theology of unbelief is when we build a theology based on what we experienced rather then change our experience to match what God says . its a defeatist theological foundation instead of a persevering overcoming one.
most common is healing --a person prays for the sick.. does not see them healed so goes away and makes up a theology to explain away what didnt happen .. a theology based upon unbelief . instead of going back to the lord and seeking him to find out WHY they did not get healed according to gods word . because God does not change - so its us getting it wrong ..not him etc

I had come to the same conclusion about goading and about basing theology on experience or lack of it.

 

[Righttruth]

Who said ANYTHING about "gibberish?” I’m talking praying in the Spirit.

Can you which even Paul did not do?

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Can you which even Paul did not do?

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

In the assembly the gift of tongues is used in conjunction with the gift of interpretation.

...have you ever interpreted?

 

[Deborah D]

Can you which even Paul did not do?

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

Eph 6:18--Pray at all times in the Spirit with every prayer and request, and stay alert in this with all perseverance and intercession for all the saints.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well the church wasn't split on the issue of gifts until the Pentecostal/charismatic movement started.

The church has been spilt for centuries - with different denominations emphasising different things, like baptism, female clergy, gifts of the Spirit, liturgy etc etc.
The church today is nothing like the church of the NT - where the believers were united, prayed together about any problems (Acts 15) and shared all their possessions. Paul criticised the Corinthians for having different groups following different people.

There has been plenty of life and growth in the Church since the apostolic age. I wouldn't say my Christian life or that of my church is lifeless and dull!

Glad to hear it, but the church is not as powerful as it was in the days of the Apostles - you know, that time after Pentecost when they spoke in tongues, performed miracles, raised the dead, made disciples and used, and walked in, the gifts of the Spirit.
And like I said, yes, that is a generalisation. But several denominations are reporting decreased numbers of members, lack of clergy and are struggling to keep churches open.

Future from the time of Paul's writing. It does say when - when completeness comes.

There's nothing to say WHEN completeness will come, or even what that is - your interpretation.

Sure charismatics and pentecostals claim to speak in tongues, but that doesn't make it true. Especially when you examine their tongues compared to the tongues of scripture.

It doesn't mean that it's not true either.
Seems to me that if a Christian testifies to God's goodness and gifts and says "I speak in tongues", your response is "don't believe it, you may be mistaken".
If you want to question what God is doing in someone else's life and doubt their testimony; that's up to you. If you want to insist that something has to be exactly as it was in Scripture before you will accept it; that's up to you too.
It doesn't mean that your view is the correct one and all others who testify to having heard/used tongues are mistaken.

How do you know they are not mistaken?

How do you know you're not?

Scripture says all beleivers are baptized in the Spirit:

1 Cor 12:13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit."​

If you are not baptized in the Spirit you are not part of the body of Christ.

Depends how you define baptism in the Spirit.
Many, many people seem to testify today that their baptism was accompanied with speaking in tongues. If that is what baptism is, I, personally, have not received it - and you don't even seem to believe in it.
Whereas Christians are converted and born again due to the work of the Holy Spirit, and may ask, daily, to be filled with the Spirit - without actually being baptised in the Spirit.
Scripture says that without the Holy Spirit we are not children of God, don't belong to God and cannot declare that Jesus is Lord. But having the Spirit and being baptised - or immersed - in the Spirit do appear to be two different things.

There is only one description of tongues in scripture, Act 2:4-11 - it was miraculously speaking a foreign human language you have never learned. There are no other scriptures giving us an alternative description.

There are a number of other Scriptures which say that people were converted and spoke in tongues.
We are not told what the tongues were, or involved.

In the absence of any re-definition it must be presumed that all the other tongues are the same. Otherwise you are reading something into scripture that isn't there - the fallacy of eisegesis.

The opposite.
If Scripture doesn't teach on, or give details,about, a subject, then it doesn't. To claim Scriptural practice, teaching or authority for something that isn't there IS reading into it.

Scripture says that believers were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues. YOU insist that these tongues had to be like those described in Acts 2 - Scripture doesn't.

Because in the absence of a redefinition that is sound hermeneutics. It is a warranted assumption. What is dangerous is an unwarranted assumption where you claim it is something else but there is no evidence of it being so.

There is no evidence that every tongue that was spoken by a believer was a known, recognisable language.

But Paul rebuked that kind of prayer where people prayed aloud but nobody understood.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that it was never used and no one had the ability to pry that way.

I said "Today's prophecies are feelings that are verbalized and presumptuously declared to be 'a word from the Lord';"

You replied "I think it rather presumptuous to declare that they are NOT a word from the Lord."

So I said "Where in scripture does it ever say prophecies come from a feeling?"

I ignored what you said about a prophecy being a feeling, because you cannot prove that and have no right to make the judgement.
I was responding to what you said about the declaration that the prophecy was a word from the Lord. You seem to think it presumptuous to say that - I am saying that it is rather presumptuous to dismiss that.
I don't automatically assume that everyone who says "the Lord told me ....." is correct; they may believe that they are, but have mistaken his voice for something else. On the other hand, I don't respond to people who say "the Lord told me ....." by saying "you may be mistaken" or "prove it".

Regarding doctrine, the Holy Spirit will not contradict what has been revealed in Scripture and taught by Jesus.
But the fact is that the Spirit may give people personal words that cannot be tested in Scripture. Scripture does not tell us which job we should take/house we should buy/person we should marry/how many kids to have/what church to go to etc etc. So if someone says, "the Lord has told me I should take this job" or whatever; how will you test that they are mistaken?

Prophecy in scripture is not preaching or teaching. It's God speaking actual words to a prophet who then relays that message to others in the form "Thus says the Lord....<insert words here>".

It's proclaiming God's words to others - correct.
But those words don't always have to be about some future event, they don't have to be new words that the Lord has never spoken before, and they don't have to be preceded by "thus saith the Lord". Someone may proclaim God's words, or will, and not even realise they are prophesying.
When Caiaphas said that it was better for one man to die for the people than the nation should perish, John 11:50; that was a prophecy, John 11:51. He didn't know it, but it was.
OT prophets often proclaimed "thus saith the Lord", without realising that their words were a prophecy about Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

In the assembly the gift of tongues is used in conjunction with the gift of interpretation.

...have you ever interpreted?

No. But I have heard of different interpretations for the same gibberish talk!

 

[Righttruth]

Eph 6:18--Pray at all times in the Spirit with every prayer and request, and stay alert in this with all perseverance and intercession for all the saints.

The Spirit always dwells in us. Praying in gibberish is not that of the Spirit.

 

[Alithis]

Well the church wasn't split on the issue of gifts until the Pentecostal/charismatic movement started.

ummm awkward .... Pentecost started in ACTS ch 2

 

[Strong in Him]

The Spirit always dwells in us. Praying in gibberish is not that of the Spirit.

If you don't know what is being said, you have no idea if it is "gibberish", an earthly language or a beautiful heavenly language.
What right have you to declare that another believer is worshipping God in "gibberish"? YOU don't understand it, but it's not directed at you.

 

[W2L]

If you don't know what is being said, you have no idea if it is "gibberish", an earthly language or a beautiful heavenly language.
What right have you to declare that another believer is worshipping God in "gibberish"? YOU don't understand it, but it's not directed at you.

If there is no translator then people are commanded to be quiet.

 

[Francis Drake]

I apologise in advance for such a long post. It includes some very revealing scriptures completely ignored in the thread so far.

The Cessationist's denial of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is not only an outrage against scripture, but a personal outrage against the Lord Jesus Christ and against his body, the church.

Their own self proclaimed theological skill has taken rule over and above every other gift and ministry that Jesus intended for his body. In this, they displace Christ and make themselves the head of the body in his place.

Their claim of theological superiority is no different to what Adam did back in the garden of Eden when he decided that the Tree of Knowledge (human intellect) was to be preferred above the Tree of Life (God's Spirit).

In boasting that their knowledge is all scripture based, Cessationists are merely echoing the scribes, Pharisees, and teachers of the Law, the worst offenders in the Gospels.
Which ever way it is viewed, the battle is still the Cessationist Tree of Knowledge vs the Holy Spirit Tree of Life.

But lets look to scripture to see what Jesus planned for his earthly body, to see how it was meant to operate till the very day he comes down and takes his throne in the New Jerusalem.

Please take time to fully read and digest the scriptures below. Also read the preceding and following chapters. You will see that they all describe the body of Christ and the fact that it was meant to be a Holy Spirit led and empowered organism, not a human institution.

You will see that once the Gifts and operation of the Holy Spirit are thrown out of the church, you are left with a man made and man controlled institution with man at the head.

Below we see Paul detailing the various gifts that make up the body of Christ, and in reading with honesty, we can see there is no possibility that the gifts would ever have been removed from the Body by Christ himself.
Casting the gifts out of the church is exactly the same as ripping the limbs from Christ himself.

Note below the great emphasis Paul makes on diversity in Christ's body, vindication that all the gifts are absolutely essential today for a living body.
There is no place anywhere in Christ's body for self proclaimed pre-eminent ministries.

1Cor12v4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for the common good.
Without all functioning gifts, there is no ministering for the common good.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
To obstruct the Holy Spirit spreading His many and varied gifts around the body of Christ is an mighty affront to all the above scriptures! The claim that God has cancelled some of them makes a nonsense of not just one verse but whole tracts of scripture.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Rejecting the gifts of other member gifts is thoroughly divisive and a direct strike against Christ's headship!

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Every last member, every last spiritual gift, is still absolutely essential for Christ's one body under His headship.
Despite the fakery of Cessationists, that headship and that body has never changed since Christ established it.

14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
The truth of the above truth is vehemently opposed by Cessationist's, who are determined to force all members of Christ's body to follow their rules. This leaves the body with nothing other than their bible scholars at the head, instead of Christ.

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
Yes, where are all the other members? Cessationism has eliminated them all apart from themselves.

20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
Did you notice that astonishing verse?
The head (Christ), cannot say to the foot (the lowest, most down trodden member) I have no need of you!
Despite the Cessationists' cry, "I have no need of you", aimed directly at my gifts, Christ himself says the very opposite of me!

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Cessationists have badly divided the body, and collectively placed themselves and their theology as head of the body. They have displaced Christ.

If as the Cessationists claim, the gifts have ceased, the above scriptures and many more become a complete nonsense.

 

[W2L]

I apologise in advance for such a long post. It includes some very revealing scriptures completely ignored in the thread so far.

The Cessationist's denial of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is not only an outrage against scripture, but a personal outrage against the Lord Jesus Christ and against his body, the church.

Their own self proclaimed theological skill has taken rule over and above every other gift and ministry that Jesus intended for his body. In this, they displace Christ and make themselves the head of the body in his place.

Their claim of theological superiority is no different to what Adam did back in the garden of Eden when he decided that the Tree of Knowledge (human intellect) was to be preferred above the Tree of Life (God's Spirit).

In boasting that their knowledge is all scripture based, Cessationists are merely echoing the scribes, Pharisees, and teachers of the Law, the worst offenders in the Gospels.
Which ever way it is viewed, the battle is still the Cessationist Tree of Knowledge vs the Holy Spirit Tree of Life.

But lets look to scripture to see what Jesus planned for his earthly body, to see how it was meant to operate till the very day he comes down and takes his throne in the New Jerusalem.

Please take time to fully read and digest the scriptures below. Also read the preceding and following chapters. You will see that they all describe the body of Christ and the fact that it was meant to be a Holy Spirit led and empowered organism, not a human institution.

You will see that once the Gifts and operation of the Holy Spirit are thrown out of the church, you are left with a man made and man controlled institution with man at the head.

Below we see Paul detailing the various gifts that make up the body of Christ, and in reading with honesty, we can see there is no possibility that the gifts would ever have been removed from the Body by Christ himself.
Casting the gifts out of the church is exactly the same as ripping the limbs from Christ himself.

Note below the great emphasis Paul makes on diversity in Christ's body, vindication that all the gifts are absolutely essential today for a living body.
There is no place anywhere in Christ's body for self proclaimed pre-eminent ministries.

1Cor12v4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for the common good.
Without all functioning gifts, there is no ministering for the common good.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
To obstruct the Holy Spirit spreading His many and varied gifts around the body of Christ is an mighty affront to all the above scriptures! The claim that God has cancelled some of them makes a nonsense of not just one verse but whole tracts of scripture.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Rejecting the gifts of other member gifts is thoroughly divisive and a direct strike against Christ's headship!

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Every last member, every last spiritual gift, is still absolutely essential for Christ's one body under His headship.
Despite the fakery of Cessationists, that headship and that body has never changed since Christ established it.

14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
The truth of the above truth is vehemently opposed by Cessationist's, who are determined to force all members of Christ's body to follow their rules. This leaves the body with nothing other than their bible scholars at the head, instead of Christ.

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
Yes, where are all the other members? Cessationism has eliminated them all apart from themselves.

20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
Did you notice that astonishing verse?
The head (Christ), cannot say to the foot (the lowest, most down trodden member) I have no need of you!
Despite the Cessationists' cry, "I have no need of you", aimed directly at my gifts, Christ himself says the very opposite of me!

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Cessationists have badly divided the body, and collectively placed themselves and their theology as head of the body. They have displaced Christ.

If as the Cessationists claim, the gifts have ceased, the above scriptures and many more become a complete nonsense.

Many claim to be apostles today but are not apostles. Also, rich preachers are preaching healing and prosperity, and they live in mansions while people starve and struggle to live. Im not seeing any love in that prosperity gospel, and love is the greatest gift. By love, not miracles, men will know we are the disciples of Christ.

 

[Alithis]

If there is no translator then people are commanded to be quiet.

only INSIDE a gathering where strangers who do not know about tongues (uninformed people) are present - that is pauls inspired advice .it is NOT a law . paul is not writing a new law book .