The question cessationists must answer.

[YeshuaFan]

No one could have been born again under the New Covenant until After Jesus death and perfect blood sacrifice and atonement for sin.

The entire premise is wrong.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant, so the New Covenant had to be implemented to be true.

True, as the new Covenant was not able to be full installed here until Jesus died, resurrected, ascended, and sent forth the Holy Spirit. So any scripture proving after the NC was here that save persons had demons casted out of them?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Except the Christian Church Never heard or even taught your version pf that Gospel until the Charismatics such as hagin and Copeland and other WoF plagiarized it from EM Kenyon, metaphysical non Christian!
This is all documented in A Different Gospel by Dan McConell, who is a Charismatic himself, but totally against WoF teaching!

Come, come, Psalm 23 was in holy writ long before the Charismatics came along. And the Pentecostal movement was before Kenyon and owes nothing to him.

Gospel means GOOD NEWS and it is the best news that was ever told. What? that we HGentiles were to become partakers of promises God made to the Jews, fellow citizens with them in their commonwealth, not by observing their law and ordinances but freely in Christ.

I am not a WoF believer.

It is a fact that Pentecostalism arose among peoples of what I regard as the wrong theological stream, that is to say among in the Arminian camp, the holiness crowd, the freewillers .


But there you are, there's nothing to be done about it but to try and redirect their minds by persuasion of the more precious doctrines of grace.

This does explain many mistakes and excesses in the Charismatic church.

The revelation of God is always going on from glory to glory...don't get left behind.

Luther was revolutionary, Whitefield/Wesley was a revolutionary move of the Holy Ghost. Yet the truths that became so everyday were in the bible for centuries.

 

[ToBeLoved]

True, as the new Covenant was not able to be full installed here until Jesus died, resurrected, ascended, and sent forth the Holy Spirit. So any scripture proving after the NC was here that save persons had demons casted out of them?

I don’t know of any.

 

[Billy Evmur]

True, but John and Paul BOTH looked to the Second Coming as our great hope, not this present life!

The second coming of our Lord is my great hope also....

 

[Billy Evmur]

Mueller had the gift of faith from God to trust the Lord to do as he did for His Orphanage, as God gave Him that special gift for that special task, but was not given to everyone!
And Spurgeon NEVER would have seen anything as equal to the scriptures for teaching and preaching and the revelation from God to us!

And yet Muller states in His "Narratives" that his intention was to show Christians everywhere that the promises of God were for them too.

It is the scriptures that teach us about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and exhorts us to earnestly desire them.

Everything must be proved by scripture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And yet Muller states in His "Narratives" that his intention was to show Christians everywhere that the promises of God were for them too.

It is the scriptures that teach us about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and exhorts us to earnestly desire them.

Everything must be proved by scripture.

Don’t forget about the scripture verse that says tongues will pass away.

Or the scripture verse that says the Holy Spirit chooses what gifts any individual has.

Those are good scripture too

 

[Billy Evmur]

Don’t forget about the scripture verse that says tongues will pass away.

Or the scripture verse that says the Holy Spirit chooses what gifts any individual has.

Those are good scripture too

When the perfect has come and we will fully know as we are fully known yes the gifts will not be needed. All is according to the will of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ToBeLoved]

When the perfect has come and we will fully know as we are fully known yes the gifts will not be needed. All is according to the will of the Holy Spirit.

Verse

 

[Billy Evmur]

How does that address our full inheritance?

Scripture says we don’t receive our full inheritance on earth.

God IS our inheritance, He is an ever present help to any who are in need...TODAY.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God IS our inheritance, He is an ever present help to any who are in need...TODAY.

That’s not what scripture says.

It says we will receive our full inheritance on the Day of Redemption.

Is it your claim you have your full inheritance now as a co-heir with Christ to the Father?

 

[Francis Drake]

I think your theology is way off.
The indwelling Holy Spirit, permanently indwelling a believer did not even happen until Pentecost in Acts. AFTER Jesus death

That is a commonly held false doctrine.
But if it were true, then Jesus lied when he told Nicodemus he must be born again. Or at least he should have warned Nicodemus that it would take another 3 years. (God not being the author of confusion etc.)

Your problem comes from conflating becoming born again by the Spirit, and being filled with the power of that Spirit.
Despite what is taught, all OT believers were born again, as indeed were the disciples prior to meeting Jesus (apart from Judas).

Do you seriously believe that people like David could have the close relationship with the Lord that the Psalms reveal, if he was unregenerate? Go read his wonderful Psalms, such 139, and see if your relationship with the Lord is better than David's was.
Do you seriously believe he could write the scriptures when he was spiritually dead?

Since this is true, Jesus could not be referring to anyone with the indwelling Holy Spirit because that didn’t even happen yet.

Wrong, see above.

So, IMHO, your theology is very off using verses before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit even happened as proof text.

Wrong again.

Very backward. I am amazed that you would consider the gospels proof text for something that occurred after the gospels.

I am amazed you fall for the most basic of false doctrines, but then it is very common.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That is a commonly held false doctrine.
But if it were true, then Jesus lied when he told Nicodemus he must be born again. Or at least he should have warned Nicodemus that it would take another 3 years. (God not being the author of confusion etc.)

Your problem comes from conflating becoming born again by the Spirit, and being filled with the power of that Spirit.
Despite what is taught, all OT believers were born again, as indeed were the disciples prior to meeting Jesus (apart from Judas).

Do you seriously believe that people like David could have the close relationship with the Lord that the Psalms reveal, if he was unregenerate? Go read his wonderful Psalms, such 139, and see if your relationship with the Lord is better than David's was.
Do you seriously believe he could write the scriptures when he was spiritually dead?

Wrong, see above.

Wrong again.

I am amazed you fall for the most basic of false doctrines, but then it is very common.

If you want to join the conversation you are welcome to do so, but please read the thread I was replying to so my response stays in context.

I responded to a specific point. Thanks.

 

[Francis Drake]

No one could have been born again under the New Covenant until After Jesus death and perfect blood sacrifice and atonement for sin.

No, your entire premise is wrong. Every sacrifice from Adam onwards was on account of the pending sacrifice that Jesus would make.
In themselves, the blood of bulls and goats did nothing, but neither does communion wine.
They are both just testimonies to the death of Christ.
Jesus is after all, the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the earth, and He is as much the God of the Old Covenant as he is the New.

The entire premise is wrong.

It obviously upsets your dogma, but that's because your dogma is wrong.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant, so the New Covenant had to be implemented to be true.

How can we be called sons of Abraham, if Abraham was unregenerate?
How can any of the OT patriarchs be quoted in the NT as our examples, if they achieved what they did whilst spiritually dead?
If they can be heroes of faith without the Spirit, then why bother with the Spirit?

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, your entire premise is wrong. Every sacrifice from Adam onwards was on account of the pending sacrifice that Jesus would make.
In themselves, the blood of bulls and goats did nothing, but neither does communion wine.
They are both just testimonies to the death of Christ.
Jesus is after all, the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the earth, and He is as much the God of the Old Covenant as he is the New.

It obviously upsets your dogma, but that's because your dogma is wrong.

How can we be called sons of Abraham, if Abraham was unregenerate?
How can any of the OT patriarchs be quoted in the NT as our examples, if they achieved what they did whilst spiritually dead?
If they can be heroes of faith without the Spirit, then why bother with the Spirit?

I believe the Bible states clearly that the animal sacrifices by the Levitical priesthood were for temporary atonement of sin.

 

[Francis Drake]

Where in the bible in ANY Epistle did the Apostles command us to cast demons out of people, and again,

I don't need to show a command in the epistles, as the epistles show them casting demons out as a part of the ministry. Go and find it for yourself!

But repeatedly throughout his ministry on earth, Jesus both taught and demonstrated the necessity of driving demons out. He also sent them out on short ministry missions to do the same thing.
It is against all common sense to pretend that the disciples after Pentecost did everything else Jesus taught them, except casting demons out.
Now you prove otherwise!
​

and again, where does it state ANYWHERE saved were demon possessed?

Here's the proof that believers can have demons.
Luke13v11And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all. 12When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.” 13And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.
14But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.” 15But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him? 16“And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?”

I read once were, then was saved and none left there!​

Err?
What on earth does that mean. It makes no sense whatsoever!​

 

[Billy Evmur]

That’s not what scripture says.

It says we will receive our full inheritance on the Day of Redemption.

Is it your claim you have your full inheritance now as a co-heir with Christ to the Father?

Of course I do, God is my portion and my inheritance. I am not yet glorified.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The Holy Spirit marches on, it's no good waiting for revival as He did 100 or 200 or 300 years ago, you'll just get left behind in the things of God, He is working through signs and wonders and miracle ministry these days. The western church is being left behind in the things of God.

There are more evangelical Christians in China today than America...it is all Pentecostal, Africa is Pentecostal even India is opening up to the Pentecostals.

Salvation, healing, deliverance and prosperity. Full salvation for the whole man.

 

[Righttruth]

To be the Apostle to the Gentiles, to have same Apostolic status as Peter and the rest of the 12!

You are weaving a theory of your own!

 

[Alithis]

I was a teaching Elder in the AOG, bible institute trained to know Pentacostal doctrines, and I came to where I am at theology wise by carefully searching the scriptures and reading both sides of the arguments, and those who say it ceased in the signs and wonders being given forth makes much better biblical sense to me!

And that is called being a hearer of the word but not a doer.
Jesus said it is self deception .
The fastest road to deception and false teaching reinforcing Unbelief... Is to hear but not Do the word of God.

Just last night as we preached the Gospel to a ex hindu house hold. They believed and repented. We laid hands on them .one guy began to thrash and growl manifesting a demon. we cast it out in JESUS . then on his own faith we baptised him in water right away.
Then we laid hands on him and he was filled with the holy Spirit and spontaneously spoke in Tongues and is Free.

Nothing about the Gospel has changed.
Nothing !

Lie not against the truth.

 

[Billy Evmur]

I was a teaching Elder in the AOG, bible institute trained to know Pentacostal doctrines, and I came to where I am at theology wise by carefully searching the scriptures and reading both sides of the arguments, and those who say it ceased in the signs and wonders being given forth makes much better biblical sense to me!

It makes historical sense for the manifestations, the demonstration did cease and no wonder, just look at how the church swerved off course and backslid in the 3rd and 4th century.

The Holy Spirit was never going to bear witness to Roman Catholicism.

Since the Reformation more and more of bible truth has been recovered.

That the Holy Spirit would cease to bear witness to bible truth makes no sense whatever.