The Purpose of the Rapture.

[dwb001]

"in Matt 24 Jesus said this gospel shall be preached up to the end of days" yes but which Gospel?? that's the key!
Jesus hadn't died as yet so what gospel was He talking about?? He was talking about the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' as distinct from the 'Gospel of Grace' introduced by God when the Jews rejected the message of Christ & given directly to Saul (Paul).
Jesus was acting in good faith, the Jews could have NOT rejected Him and the generation alive at the time would have seen the millennial kingdom but they DID reject Him so God put that last 7 years that sees the Millennial kingdom in aside while He extended salvation to the Gentiles.

Paul is to the Gentiles as Moses is to the Jews.

The Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus mentioned was this:
1) Believe Jesus is the Messiah & High Priest to the Jews after the order of Melchizedek
2) Do the works of the Law of Moses, so observe the feast and the statues given to Moses & the Jews - Matt 19:17
3) Repent
4) Be baptized ( a work)
This relies on works as a way to show ones faith

The Gospel of Grace is this:
1) Believe Jesus is the Son of God made flesh
2) That He died for our sins
3) That He was buried and rose again so we will too
- Essentially faith 1st then works outflow from that

After the rapture the Gospel of Grace is no longer in operation, it will be the Gospel of the Kingdom that is preached once again by believing Jews up until the end of the tribulation.
Watch this 7 min video to see what Jesus's ministry was about

:

But Revelation puts the Rapture after the Millennium.
Rev 20:12-13 is the only place I can find the Rapture in Revelation.
So after the Rapture we are on the New Earth.
We have to be caught into the air because this old Earth is destroyed.

 

[Sorn]

But Revelation puts the Rapture after the Millennium.
Rev 20:12-13 is the only place I can find the Rapture in Revelation.
So after the Rapture we are on the New Earth.
We have to be caught into the air because this old Earth is destroyed.

Rev 20:12-13 is a resurrection, the final resurrection, not a rapture.

Not that I want to get into a conversation with you and also I am not going to give verses but if want to understand more then watch the linked video. Presents a good case for 3 mass resurrections, the 1st one being at the same time as the traditional pre-trib rapture.
Only living people are raptured, dead people are resurrected.
The 3 resurrections are :
1) Pre trib
2) Post trib
3) Post millennium

 

[dwb001]

Rev 20:12-13 is a resurrection, the final resurrection, not a rapture.

Not that I want to get into a conversation with you and also I am not going to give verses but if want to understand more then watch the linked video. Presents a good case for 3 mass resurrections, the 1st one being at the same time as the traditional pre-trib rapture.
Only living people are raptured, dead people are resurrected

I don't often watch external videos, because I will only debate with a person I can get a response from.

After the Millennium the dead in Christ are resurrected to the clouds with Christ.
The people of God who are alive during the Millennium are caught up.
Then we all come down to the New Earth.

Simple and with no contradictions between John and Paul.
Your version requires some mangling of Scripture.
Consider the beauty of how God makes things and consider if your version is beautiful or forced?

 

[fm107]

No it is not obvious that the church is the Lamb`s wife. The word Lamb, (as in capital L) relates to Israel`s sacrifices.

This made me chuckle. Look at it logically, what your saying is that the marriage spoken of in Rev 19:7 (quoted below), is the marriage of Israel's sacrifices?! That makes no sense at all!

Rev 19:7
Let us rejoice and exult, and give him glory; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready.

It may not be obvious to you, but it is to me - that this is the marriage of the Lord (Lamb) and His Church.

 

[Sorn]

I don't often watch external videos, because I will only debate with a person I can get a response from.

I'm not interested in debate. I want to see a coherent logically and interesting theological viewpoint put across that I can study and ponder in my own time, & do like wise with any opposing views to that starting view. Hence why i like videos. I want to know the truth in as much as we can know it, not enter into debates.

 

[dfw69]

Which testimony of the rapture? The one written down or the one you believe?

Let’s try written down

What two trumpets?

The first and the last
The first trump awakes the dead Incorruptible the last trump fulfills that not all will die but all will be changed in a twinkle of an eye ..poof your a child of God

Paul does not lay out when this event occurs.

So why assume it occurs in Rev 20?

 

[dwb001]

Let’s try written down

So you want to stick to the written form but fail to provide any references at all.

The first and the last
The first trump awakes the dead Incorruptible the last trump fulfills that not all will die but all will be changed in a twinkle of an eye ..poof your a child of God

You are the first person I have ever heard that mentions a two trumpet Rapture event.
But without references you are only stating your opinion.
Please provide your references.

So why assume it occurs in Rev 20?

Because that is the only place in Revelation that matches the Pauline description of the Rapture.
You know... written down.

 

[dfw69]

You are the first person I have ever heard that mentions a two trumpet Rapture event.

Really? That is what I see in scripture the first trump awakening the dead in Christ not all the dead and there is no mention of judgement afterwards nor a great white throne

The last trump changes the living in Christ into children of god immortal

With an immortal body
to be like Jesus

But without references you are only stating your opinion.
Please provide your references.

Ok which thing that I said specifically u need a ref on?

Because that is the only place in Revelation that matches the Pauline description of the Rapture.
You know... written down.

Show how paul description matches rev 20

 

[dwb001]

Really? That is what I see in scripture the first trump awakening the dead in Christ not all the dead and there is no mention of judgement afterwards nor a great white throne

Where is this first trump? Where does this trump awaken the dead?

The last trump changes the living in Christ into children of god immortal

Where is this last trump mentioned and the mention of it turning the living into another form?

With an immortal body
to be like Jesus

References for this too.

Ok which thing that I said specifically u need a ref on?

Everything.

Show how paul description matches rev 20

Ok... what Paul says...

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:1-11 there are the ones that are alive(with Christ) because of the first resurrection.. (we which are alive and remain)

Rev 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God"... (the dead in Christ shall rise first)

Rev 21:1 Old Earth was no more... we can't be on the Earth at that time because no Earth... (caught up together with them in the clouds)

Rev 20:13 shows that the Great White Throne is not just for the unbelievers... because Death AND Hell gave up the dead.
Do believers die... yes and go to the realm of death.
Do unbelievers die... yes and go to Hell
Luke 16... Rich man and Lazarus ... Jesus describing the afterlife before the New Earth's arrival.

If this is not a close match without any contradictions... then where in Revelation is there a better match?

 

[Marilyn C]

This made me chuckle. Look at it logically, what your saying is that the marriage spoken of in Rev 19:7 (quoted below), is the marriage of Israel's sacrifices?! That makes no sense at all!

Rev 19:7
Let us rejoice and exult, and give him glory; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready.

It may not be obvious to you, but it is to me - that this is the marriage of the Lord (Lamb) and His Church.

I was referring to the word Lamb, which we know pertains to Israel sacrifices. Thus, meaning that the term is related to ISRAEL.

Rev. 19: 7 concerning the `wife` of the Lamb which is Israel the nation on earth. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6, Hosea 2: 19 & 20)

Rev. 21: 2 refers to the city which was made in heaven and appear with God`s glory AS A bride. (symbol) And that city was promised to the OT saints, (Heb. 11: 16)

 

[dfw69]

Where is this first trump? Where does this trump awaken the dead?

Where is this last trump mentioned and the mention of it turning the living into another form?




1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God is the first trumpet… and notice how He does not say the (last) trump of God which will change the living which Paul reveals in 1 cor 15:51-53?

1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then, after the last trump which changes the living, we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air

1 Corinthians 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable;what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body ; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being”;5 the last Adam became a life giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural,and then the spiritual. 47 the first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven . 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

We will put on the image of the man from heaven

We will look like Jesus

1 John 3:2 dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

The only reason to obtain the heavenly man is to live in heaven where Jesus is now in His glorious body in the presence of His Father

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

This reveals the 2nd trumpet that will fulfill the mystery that we will not all die but be changed immortal at the sound of the last trumpet



So the first trump of God raises the dead in Christ only and the last trump changes the living In Christ so that death is swallowed up in victory.

This rapture is only for those in Christ at His coming for the church to fulfill the John 14 promises to make a home for us in His Fathers House with many rooms

 

[dfw69]

Rev 20:1-11 there are the ones that are alive(with Christ) because of the first resurrection.. (we which are alive and remain)

Yet there’s no mention of Paul’s description whatsoever as he taught mentioned in rev 20…

Where is the appearance in the sky where is meeting in heaven where is the transformation to immortal none of it is mentioned and to assume the first resurrection in rev 20 is Paul’s resurrection is false

Rev 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God"... (the dead in Christ shall rise first)

Rev 20:12 takes place after the millennium

Yet Paul taught at Jesus appearing in the sky which is at his coming for the church are the dead in Christ risen and the living in Christ are transformed all of which takes place before the millennium

This alone kills your teaching because at his coming a rapture takes place and after the millennium the great white throne takes place … a span of 1000 years between the events

Rev 21:1 Old Earth was no more... we can't be on the Earth at that time because no Earth... (caught up together with them in the clouds)

Lol nice try

Didn’t you say God doesn’t take out of the earth?

during the renovation of earth into the new earth can not people make tabernacles and be safe from the fire from heaven while it renovates the earth ? No need to take to heaven right?

Rev 20:13 shows that the Great White Throne is not just for the unbelievers... because Death AND Hell gave up the dead.
Do believers die... yes and go to the realm of death.
Do unbelievers die... yes and go to Hell
Luke 16... Rich man and Lazarus ... Jesus describing the afterlife before the New Earth's arrival.

Nope they are all dead and lost ..your failing to see the first resurrection takes place before the millennium and the great white throne judgement is after the millennium and after the gog and Magog rebellion

Even if there was only one resurrection called the first resurrection it takes place at his coming and it is only after His coming does the millennium start and after the millennium comes the great white throne

If this is not a close match without any contradictions... then where in Revelation is there a better match?

Our rapture will have taken place before rev takes place so you will not find Paul’s resurrection in rev

1 Thes 5 Paul makes it clear that there are 2 times and season 2 appointed for 2 classes of people one for those that are in darkness and one for those in the light …

Revelation takes place for those that belong to the night

I’m sure your going to have a hard time receiving this truth

Stay in the light and keep the faith and you will not have to worry about the appointment God has for those in darkness

 

[dfw69]

After the Millennium the dead in Christ are resurrected to the clouds with Christ.

This does not say the dead in Christ which are Christians it say the dead both small and great referring to everyone else not in Christ

Paul also did not mention that Jesus ,who has been ruling on earth during the millennium, after the millennium ascension up to the clouds to then call us up…Paul said He descends from heaven not ascend up 1 Thes 4:16

The people of God who are alive during the Millennium are caught up.
Then we all come down to the New Earth.

There is no mentioning of being caught up in revelation during the millennium

Simple and with no contradictions between John and Paul.

Simply false .. why do you hate the Christian version of the rapture that you seek to find another version ?

Your version requires some mangling of Scripture.
Consider the beauty of how God makes things and consider if your version is beautiful or forced?

Practice what u preach

 

[dwb001]

This trump of God is the first trumpet… and notice how He does not say the (last) trump of God which will change the living which Paul reveals in 1 cor 15:51-53?

References for this trump of God being referenced as the first trump.
Nothing in the reference says anything about first or last trump, nor that it is the trump of God.
Just that a trump sounds.

Then, after the last trump which changes the living, we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air

1 Corinthians 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable;what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body ; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being”;5 the last Adam became a life giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural,and then the spiritual. 47 the first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven . 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

We will put on the image of the man from heaven

No timing indicated. When?

We will look like Jesus

1 John 3:2 dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

The only reason to obtain the heavenly man is to live in heaven where Jesus is now in His glorious body in the presence of His Father

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

This reveals the 2nd trumpet that will fulfill the mystery that we will not all die but be changed immortal at the sound of the last trumpet



So the first trump of God raises the dead in Christ only and the last trump changes the living In Christ so that death is swallowed up in victory.

This rapture is only for those in Christ at His coming for the church to fulfill the John 14 promises to make a home for us in His Fathers House with many rooms

Nothing here refutes what I hold to.
Just you assume a timing that Paul did not give.

 

[dwb001]

Yet there’s no mention of Paul’s description whatsoever as he taught mentioned in rev 20…

I just provided you with proof.
But you will yourself to be blind to something new.
Such a shame.

Where is the appearance in the sky where is meeting in heaven where is the transformation to immortal none of it is mentioned and to assume the first resurrection in rev 20 is Paul’s resurrection is false

Rev 21:1

Rev 20:12 takes place after the millennium

Yes.

Yet Paul taught at Jesus appearing in the sky which is at his coming for the church are the dead in Christ risen and the living in Christ are transformed all of which takes place before the millennium

You have added much more to that sentence then Paul did.

This alone kills your teaching because at his coming a rapture takes place and after the millennium the great white throne takes place … a span of 1000 years between the events

Rapture is for the GWT judgement.
You want it before.
I say it is at that time.
So no nothing has been killed.

Lol nice try

Didn’t you say God doesn’t take out of the earth?

No I was saying God does not take us out of troubles.
The Earth is destroyed.
Entirely.
Being moved to a New Earth.

during the renovation of earth into the new earth can not people make tabernacles and be safe from the fire from heaven while it renovates the earth ? No need to take to heaven right?

Not renovation... destruction, evaporation, vaporization, total complete and irreversible removal.

Nope they are all dead and lost ..your failing to see the first resurrection takes place before the millennium and the great white throne judgement is after the millennium and after the gog and Magog rebellion

Nope. I don't fail to see the first resurrection.
The first resurrection would be those who die during the Tribulation. All those 7 churches that overcame. Not all believers throughout history.

Even if there was only one resurrection called the first resurrection it takes place at his coming and it is only after His coming does the millennium start and after the millennium comes the great white throne

After His coming, not at.
You forgot the second resurrection.
And Christs battle at Armageddon. (Where Christ comes to Earth)

Our rapture will have taken place before rev takes place so you will not find Paul’s resurrection in rev

I don't think so.

1 Thes 5 Paul makes it clear that there are 2 times and season 2 appointed for 2 classes of people one for those that are in darkness and one for those in the light …

I don't see these 2 times, seasons.

Revelation takes place for those that belong to the night

Then why is there constant advise to the faithful during Revelation.
Prepare to be here.

I’m sure your going to have a hard time receiving this truth

I see no truth here.
If there was I am sure you would be right.

Stay in the light and keep the faith and you will not have to worry about the appointment God has for those in darkness

And get ready for Revelation to be a real and present part of your life.

 

[dwb001]

This does not say the dead in Christ which are Christians it say the dead both small and great referring to everyone else not in Christ

Patch it together man.
All are raised to life.
Judgement happens.
The flocks are sorted.
The sheep and the Shepard leave the old Earth that is "no more".
The Shepard leads the sheep to the New Earth forever more.

Paul also did not mention that Jesus ,who has been ruling on earth during the millennium, after the millennium ascension up to the clouds to then call us up…Paul said He descends from heaven not ascend up 1 Thes 4:16

I am not sure of what part of the dance Paul saw.

There is no mentioning of being caught up in revelation during the millennium

Rev 20:12-21:1.

Simply false .. why do you hate the Christian version of the rapture that you seek to find another version ?

I only am saying what the Bible says.

Practice what u preach

I am.

 

[dfw69]

References for this trump of God being referenced as the first trump.
Nothing in the reference says anything about first or last trump, nor that it is the trump of God.
Just that a trump sounds.

Clearly Paul is revealing 2 trumpets sounds with 2 specific events taking place I call them the first and the last trumpet of the rapture

No timing indicated. When?

At Christ coming for his church every Christian knows this ..

Why is it pre trib? Because the barley harvest comes first before the separation of the tares and wheat harvest

Only the first fruit have been gathered we are the completion of the barley harvest awaiting our Passover

Nothing here refutes what I hold to.

Believe what you will but you may be holding false doctrine

Just you assume a timing that Paul did not give.

The Philadelphia church is promised and open door for their faith and to be protect from a time of trial

John saw an open door to heaven and went up so this open door may in fact be actually be the picture of the rapture

But the timing is always at Christ coming for His own and definitely not after the millennium

 

[dwb001]

Clearly Paul is revealing 2 trumpets sounds with 2 specific events taking place I call them the first and the last trumpet of the rapture

I didn't read about two trumpets... but then again I miss things on occasion.

At Christ coming for his church every Christian knows this ..

But when in a sequence of events?
I see it fitting in nicely at Rev 20. You do not.
Paul provides no reference point to settle the question.

Why is it pre trib? Because the barley harvest comes first before the separation of the tares and wheat harvest

Where are you getting this now?
References.

Only the first fruit have been gathered we are the completion of the barley harvest awaiting our Passover

References.

Believe what you will but you may be holding false doctrine

Right back at you.

The Philadelphia church is promised and open door for their faith and to be protect from a time of trial

And now I see that you do not understand Revelation.
You really need to reread the book.

John saw an open door to heaven and went up so this open door may in fact be actually be the picture of the rapture

So where in Rev 4:1 are the dead in Christ rising first? Where is the trumps you claim to be there(there is a loud voice like a trumpet but no trumpet)?
You are stretching to make a verse fit, whereas I provided an entire outline that matches the Pauline vision better.

But the timing is always at Christ coming for His own and definitely not after the millennium

Yes Christ comes for His own before the millennium.
The Rapture happens after.

 

[dfw69]

I just provided you with proof.
But you will yourself to be blind to something new.
Such a shame.

But it’s not new it’s false if it were new I am humble enough and open minded to accept it if it were truth but this thought of yours is wrong and you should not accept false teachings

Rev 21:1

Does not answer my questions

The first heaven and earth as we know it died and there was no more sea only land left ….the new heaven and earth has come it’s a renovation not a total annihilation of the heaven and earth

You have added much more to that sentence then Paul did.

No I did not Paul makes it clear it takes place at his coming for the dead in Christ ie believers


It does not take pace during the resurrection of the dead both small and great which are resurrected after the first resurrection

Rapture is for the GWT judgement.

false assumption

You want it before.
I say it is at that time.
So no nothing has been killed.

Will see

No I was saying God does not take us out of troubles.
The Earth is destroyed.
Entirely.
Being moved to a New Earth.

Now this could be a new position for me this makes some sense but is it true donkey?

Not sure that it is cause God could transform the old world into a new world but even if He is moving us to a new earth It not the rapture that we will experience according to Paul at His coming

Not renovation... destruction, evaporation, vaporization, total complete and irreversible removal.

Will see ..I don’t believe so but it may be possible

Nope. I don't fail to see the first resurrection.
The first resurrection would be those who die during the Tribulation. All those 7 churches that overcame. Not all believers throughout history.

The first resurrection takes place at His coming …There is no tribulation during the millennium … and after the millennium gog and Magog prepared to attack but no success whatsoever

It is after the gog Magog war that the gwt judgement takes place when the dead small and great are risen to be judge and cast into the lake of fire that you say will be the rapture up to the sky in preparation to receive the new earth

This is just not correct

After His coming, not at.
You forgot the second resurrection.
And Christs battle at Armageddon. (Where Christ comes to Earth)

That’s incorrect according to Paul who said the lord will ascend from heaven to appear in the sky to sound 2 trumpet

Then why is there constant advise to the faithful during Revelation.
Prepare to be here.

For those in that day and age not us … God is not a monster

And get ready for Revelation to be a real and present part of your life.

It’s not.. the time is not yet

 

[dfw69]

I didn't read about two trumpets... but then again I miss things on occasion.

But when in a sequence of events?
I see it fitting in nicely at Rev 20. You do not.
Paul provides no reference point to settle the question.

Where are you getting this now?
References.

References.

Right back at you.

And now I see that you do not understand Revelation.
You really need to reread the book.

So where in Rev 4:1 are the dead in Christ rising first? Where is the trumps you claim to be there(there is a loud voice like a trumpet but no trumpet)?
You are stretching to make a verse fit, whereas I provided an entire outline that matches the Pauline vision better.


Yes Christ comes for His own before the millennium.
The Rapture happens after.

Well will see if the rapture that Paul teaches takes place soon or during the gwt my money is on soon