The Purpose of the Rapture.

[dfw69]

The rapture theory is false doctrine,

That is a false statement when both Jesus and Paul confirmed the event

and God hates the fly away doctrine,

God whispered this in your ear?

If not doesn’t that make you a false prophet ?

You should not speak on Gods behalf and no where does it say God hates the rapture doctrine

God very own Son testified of it and Jesus send Paul to us to testify of it as well

Ezekiel chapter 13 to document.

Yet Jesus and Paul testified of the event yet you come against it because you fail to believe in the love of God He has for His own

Duertonmomy 29:20 . The false preachers names are blotted out from under heaven.

Jesus and Paul were not false teachers

Ezekiel chapter 13. The false preachers are not listed in the records of the house of Israel.

Paul was sent by Jesus Himself

The false brethren go into the pit with satan during millennium.

False brethren pretend to love Jesus but are antichrist in heart and they hate Christ and His love for the church

On judgement day, the big hammer drop on the fake shepherds. They are spirtual murderers.
God hates false teachings. God hates false preachers.

Again false brethren and false teachers do not belong to Jesus nor do they believe He is the Son of God .. They are deceivers leading astray from the faith and hope found in the Son of God

Revelation chapter 13 and second thessalonians chapter 2. The son of perdition is satan,

He’s a man

he comes 6th trump in his role as antichrist near future to Jerusalem.

He comes after the false messianic age to end that age which is nowhere near in our lifetime

The majority of people are biblically illiterate. They are too lazy to study the bible or enjoy listening to misguided preachers.
Ephesians chapter 6 tells us to have on gospel armour. Apparently, most people are biblically illiterate.

No weapon formed against us shall prosper not even the illiterates of the rapture because it’s written whether we live or die we will be with Him because we belong to the Lord

We see the impact of fake shepherds on people. Teaching traditions of men and false doctrine.

nothing false about the rapture when it was taught by Jesus and Paul and even John

Majority will worship antichrist near future.

Too many false prophets proclaiming the end of days when the end of days are not upon us

Revelation chapter 20. The millennium is the last chance for the spirtualty dead. Its time of teaching and discipline for the spirtualty dead. The fake shepherds wont be around during millennium.

The millennium is not even at the door yet you speak as if it’s around the corner… it’s not

During the coming false messianic age Christian gospel with its values and teachings will be attacked and it’s already begun and many false prophets and false messiahs will arise during its evil reign over the nations

 

[Timtofly]

Yes Christ comes for His own before the millennium.
The Rapture happens after.

The rapture is not for the church? Who is the rapture for, then?

 

[dwb001]

The rapture is not for the church? Who is the rapture for, then?

For every believer.
When the Great White Throne is done and the Earth is finished.
Rapture and then we get to watch the New Earth (our eternal home) come down.

 

[Timtofly]

For every believer.
When the Great White Throne is done and the Earth is finished.
Rapture and then we get to watch the New Earth (our eternal home) come down.

That is not what you posted. You claimed the Second Coming happens before the Millennium for all. Then you said the rapture happens after, for "no one". No one is left after the Millennium if they all were with Christ prior to the Millennium.

Yes Christ comes for His own before the millennium.
The Rapture happens after.

 

[dwb001]

That is not what you posted. You claimed the Second Coming happens before the Millennium for all. Then you said the rapture happens after, for "no one". No one is left after the Millennium if they all were with Christ prior to the Millennium.

Jesus comes before the Millennium.
Rapture for all happens after(edit: at) GWT judgment.

I have always said this.
Just because you misunderstood, don't place that on me.
Just ask clarifying questions.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus comes before the Millennium.
Rapture for all happens after(edit: at) GWT judgment.

I have always said this.
Just because you misunderstood, don't place that on me.
Just ask clarifying questions.

Then you separate the Second Coming from the rapture?

How does Paul separate the Second Coming from the rapture?

 

[dwb001]

Then you separate the Second Coming from the rapture?

Yes.

How does Paul separate the Second Coming from the rapture?

Where did Paul get his understanding of the rapture and second coming from?

I don't know how Paul does things... Paul didn't write Revelation.

 

[JulieB67]

nothing false about the rapture when it was taught by Jesus and Paul and even John

Jesus did not teach that he would return before the tribulation of the last days. In fact he was very adamant that one should not be deceived on this very subject. Paul gave out the same warnings. And Paul even nailed down the timing when certain ones had become confused. The problem is that people who believe in a pretrib rapture (I used to be one) have to separate his coming (singular) - into two separate events. That's they only way they can reason out their beliefs. And that's just not biblical. If it were I would certainly believe it. This doctrine is what finally got me into the bible over 20 years ago, I only wanted the truth no matter what that might be. We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I know none of us will probably be changing each other's mind on this and that's fine. But it worked for me once when someone once planted the very same seed about this. It drove into the word and I'm thankful for that. And I certainly had an open mind at the time which was good because it's certainly a lot harder to unlearn something that had been so indocrinated than to actually learn a new truth at times.

In the end I'd rather go with Christ and Paul and heed their warnings.

 

[dfw69]

Jesus did not teach that he would return before the tribulation of the last days. In fact he was very adamant that one should not be deceived on this very subject. Paul gave out the same warnings. And Paul even nailed down the timing when certain ones had become confused. The problem is that people who believe in a pretrib rapture (I used to be one) have to separate his coming (singular) - into two separate events. That's they only way they can reason out their beliefs. And that's just not biblical. If it were I would certainly believe it. This doctrine is what finally got me into the bible over 20 years ago, I only wanted the truth no matter what that might be. We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I know none of us will probably be changing each other's mind on this and that's fine. But it worked for me once when someone once planted the very same seed about this. It drove into the word and I'm thankful for that. And I certainly had an open mind at the time which was good because it's certainly a lot harder to unlearn something that had been so indocrinated than to actually learn a new truth at times.

In the end I'd rather go with Christ and Paul and heed their warnings.

I believe we may be witnessing the rapture in our lifetime I pray you and I may partake in its glory

 

[Timtofly]

Yes.

Where did Paul get his understanding of the rapture and second coming from?

I don't know how Paul does things... Paul didn't write Revelation.

Revelation does not separate the rapture from the Second Coming either. They are the 5th and 6th Seal. No one has a handle on when exactly the Seals are opened. At least not until the 5th and 6th Seal are opened.

John was a witness to the events. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

The problem is that people who believe in a pretrib rapture (I used to be one) have to separate his coming (singular) - into two separate events. That's they only way they can reason out their beliefs.

No they don't. Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is only a return if Jesus and the 144k leave earth for 42 months. If there are no 42 months, Armageddon will not even happen. John gives us the worse case scenario. It has not happened yet. Until it does happen, no one can state it does happen.

Many declare the 70th week of Daniel 9 was finished in the first century. That did not happen. The rule of Jesus on a throne in Jerusalem was placed on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Satan's 42 months is another interruption to the 70th week. Now we won't know until it actually happens.

 

[dfw69]

Revelation does not separate the rapture from the Second Coming either. They are the 5th and 6th Seal. No one has a handle on when exactly the Seals are opened. At least not until the 5th and 6th Seal are opened.

John was a witness to the events. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Timtofly Paul’s description of the rapture is not found between the 5th and 6th seal. There is no reason to assume it takes place then. Though the souls of them that were slain are seen in heaven under the alter and given robes does not necessarily mean these saints are raptured as Paul describes the rapture to take place …

The signs of the 6th seal only reveal the wrath not the rapture.
The signs of the 6th seal are these..
A great earthquake
Sun turning black like the color of black sackcloth
Moon reddish like the color of blood
The stars fall like figs falling by a strong wind
The sky (clouds) vanish like a scroll being rolled up
Every mountain and island moved from its current place
Everyone hid themselves knowing the wrath has come as if they were told it was coming soon

There is no mention of the appearing of Jesus in the sky nor the sounding of 2 trumpets nor the mentioning of the dead risen and the living transformed

 

[FutureAndAHope]

There is no rapture, it is a false idea, that gives false hope to people. Jesus clearly shows we must suffer persecution. It is only after the persecution that Jesus returns.

Mat 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After the Anti-Christ is on the earth.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

[dwb001]

Revelation does not separate the rapture from the Second Coming either. They are the 5th and 6th Seal. No one has a handle on when exactly the Seals are opened. At least not until the 5th and 6th Seal are opened.

John was a witness to the events. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I don't see a Pauline rapture during the seals. How do you square that circle?

 

[dfw69]

There is no rapture, it is a false idea, that gives false hope to people.

Yes there is Jesus said so in John 14 which he clearly says he’s returning from heaven to gather us up to take us to His fathers house with many abode’s already in existence

He also told nicodemus that to get to the kingdom of heaven one must be change by the Holy Spirit to enter in

And Paul taught the change takes place at the sounding of 2 trumpets

Jesus clearly shows we must suffer persecution.

Has not there been enough persecution since the birth of Christianity? When you look around do you see rainbows and butterflies?

It is only after the persecution that Jesus returns.

There are more than one type of tribulations revealed in scripture. Its the last tribulation known as jacobs trouble that Jesus returns to reign in Jerusalem from heaven

Mat 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

To establish the throne of David as promised to the Jews

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Tribes of Israel will mourn when they see Him coming with clouds

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus will gather the scattered the elect to Israel to receive their land portions as prophecied

After the Anti-Christ is on the earth.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

Paul was referring the day of the Lord wrath not the rapture

 

[dwb001]

Yes there is Jesus said so in John 14 which he clearly says he’s returning from heaven to gather us up to take us to His fathers house with many abode’s already in existence

That is a bit of a misreading of John 14.
There is no mention of taking us to His Fathers house.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

2Cor 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

The mansion is our new bodies.
Jesus said He will come again and receive us to Himself.
Where is Jesus during the receiving... on Earth. (He came again)

2 Cor is one of the places that refer to our present body as a tent. Just think of the body you will have after Jesus has spent 2000 years working on it for you.

 

[dfw69]

That is a bit of a misreading of John 14.
There is no mention of taking us to His Fathers house.

I don’t believe so .. In fact that’s exactly what He is saying and why even bring it up if it were not so ?

He tells them that in His Fathers house there are many abodes for us already in existence

Saying the abodes are there and that there is plenty of room for everyone

Then He says He goes to prepare the way there to this place to His Fathers house with many abodes already in existence which we know to be the heavenly city new Jerusalem

They didn’t understand and one said ‘we don’t know where u are going how can we know the way?’ ask .. He answer is (and it’s still true today) I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to this place to my fathers house with many abodes but by Him

2 In my Father's house are many mansions:

Already in existence in heaven called new Jerusalem the holy city of God

if it were not so, I would have told you.

Why mention it to them if they had no chance to live there?

I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus is the way to the fathers house with many abodes

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

The rapture that Paul describes will fulfill this promise

2Cor 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

It is only by being born again by Gods Spirit that we obtain such bodies to enter heaven. Why else do we receive heavenly dwellings but only to live and be in the presence of God to become His children? In that day we become the children of God . When the Spirit gives birth to change us so that we too obtain Spiritual heavenly bodies

John 3:1-7

The mansion is our new bodies.

That not correct and you misunderstood the teaching

Jesus said He will come again and receive us to Himself.

Amen at His coming for us we are change at the sounding of 2 trumpets

Where is Jesus during the receiving... on Earth. (He came again)

Again you miss the mark because it does not say Jesus is returning to reclaim the kingdom on earth . Your making an incorrect assumption

Paul makes it clear He appears in the sky with no mentioning of Him setting foot on land

2 Cor is one of the places that refer to our present body as a tent. Just think of the body you will have after Jesus has spent 2000 years working on it for you.

I already know what body I am going to obtain from my Father

Take a look at these scriptures and see what the transformation will look like and see if you can come up with the same conclusion as I have …

1 John 3:2
and
The Revelation of Jesus Christ 1:12-18

 

[dwb001]

I don’t believe so .. In fact that’s exactly what He is saying and why even bring it up if it were not so ?

He tells them that in His Fathers house there are many abodes for us already in existence

Saying the abodes are there and that there is plenty of room for everyone

Then He says He goes to prepare the way there to this place to His Fathers house with many abodes already in existence which we know to be the heavenly city new Jerusalem

They didn’t understand and one said ‘we don’t know where u are going how can we know the way?’ ask .. He answer is (and it’s still true today) I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to this place to my fathers house with many abodes but by Him

Already in existence in heaven called new Jerusalem the holy city of God


Why mention it to them if they had no chance to live there?


Jesus is the way to the fathers house with many abodes


The rapture that Paul describes will fulfill this promise


It is only by being born again by Gods Spirit that we obtain such bodies to enter heaven. Why else do we receive heavenly dwellings but only to live and be in the presence of God to become His children? In that day we become the children of God . When the Spirit gives birth to change us so that we too obtain Spiritual heavenly bodies

John 3:1-7



That not correct and you misunderstood the teaching



Amen at His coming for us we are change at the sounding of 2 trumpets

What 2 trumpets? References.

Again you miss the mark because it does not say Jesus is returning to reclaim the kingdom on earth . Your making an incorrect assumption

Or you are.

Paul makes it clear He appears in the sky with no mentioning of Him setting foot on land

Who knows better Paul or Jesus?
Jesus gave His view of events in Revelation, but you prefer Paul.

I already know what body I am going to obtain from my Father

Take a look at these scriptures and see what the transformation will look like and see if you can come up with the same conclusion as I have …

1 John 3:2
and
The Revelation of Jesus Christ 1:12-18

So you think that the description of Jesus is equal to your eventual appearance?
So now you are God?

Good to know you are not open to thinking of things in a new way.
Tradition can be very comforting and I wish you the best of luck with it.

 

[dfw69]

What 2 trumpets? References.

I believe we already had this discussion

Who knows better Paul or Jesus?
Jesus gave His view of events in Revelation, but you prefer Paul.

There is no contradiction between Paul and Jesus

Paul’s rapture of Jesus coming in the sky for the church takes place before the return of Christ promised to the Jews

So you think that the description of Jesus is equal to your eventual appearance?
So now you are God?

No I am not God…God is God …

I’m saying we will become like the children of God by the Holy Spirit through Christ adoption thus making a way to live with the Father in heaven

Good to know you are not open to thinking of things in a new way.

I am open to things but only if I find truth in what one finds and teaches

Tradition can be very comforting and I wish you the best of luck with it.

I came up with my own faith and conclusions as to what i believe is the truth as the scripture says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling phil 2:12-13

 

[Timtofly]

Timtofly Paul’s description of the rapture is not found between the 5th and 6th seal. There is no reason to assume it takes place then. Though the souls of them that were slain are seen in heaven under the alter and given robes does not necessarily mean these saints are raptured as Paul describes the rapture to take place …

The signs of the 6th seal only reveal the wrath not the rapture.
The signs of the 6th seal are these..
A great earthquake
Sun turning black like the color of black sackcloth
Moon reddish like the color of blood
The stars fall like figs falling by a strong wind
The sky (clouds) vanish like a scroll being rolled up
Every mountain and island moved from its current place
Everyone hid themselves knowing the wrath has come as if they were told it was coming soon

There is no mention of the appearing of Jesus in the sky nor the sounding of 2 trumpets nor the mentioning of the dead risen and the living transformed

Where are two Trumpets mentioned in these verses?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

One Trumpet.

There are no Trumpets in Revelation 19 at all.

But there are stars in these verses:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places..... hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

The 5th Seal is the church being glorified. How many times will this event happen in reality? A few glorified at each time?