The Purpose of the Rapture.

[Sorn]

Not according to apostolic teaching which locates the resurrection, rapture and judgment together, and
where no time location is given in 1 Co 6:2-3, and the prophecies of Jer and Isa are riddles (Nu 12:1-8), subject to more than one interpretation, yours not being in agreement with the following apostolic teaching authoritative to the church on the matter.

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

"Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41)" - is not the rapture, it is the same as in Noah, the wicked were taken, the righteous left behind.

 

[dwb001]

Your 'question' insinuated I was 'confused' (at best & thats being kind).
I didn't take offence, again, another judgement from you. I didn't like it though so didn't respond.
You last line is once again, confrontational and judgemental in nature - my character, yeah, don't like to be disrespected, no one does, you brought it up though in Post#69

So you call me disrespectful without taking offense.
Possible but not very likely.
Your quotation marks around question and confused are insulting to me. But I just let it slide.
In my past experience Aussies have been very chill. I guess there are high strung Aussies as well.

 

[Clare73]

"Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41)" - is not the rapture, it is the same as in Noah, the wicked were taken, the righteous left behind.

It is according to apostolic teaching authoritative to the church on the matter.
There is no apostolic teaching to support your assertion, which contradicts apostolic teaching, where

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

 

[Sorn]

So you call me disrespectful without taking offense.
Possible but not very likely.
Your quotation marks around question and confused are insulting to me. But I just let it slide.
In my past experience Aussies have been very chill. I guess there are high strung Aussies as well.

You know perfectly well what you are doing & how you come across:

 

[dwb001]

You know perfectly well what you are doing & how you come accross:

Honest and sincere.
And you?

 

[Sorn]

Honest and sincere.
And you?

and in terms of not providing scripture:

bit of a double standard there i'd say

 

[dwb001]

and in terms of not providing scripture:
View attachment 335319
bit of a double standard there i'd say

I asked for you to provide Scripture (or historical) references to back your version of Biblical events.
I had not made any assertions that involved the understanding of the Bible yet.
My assertions were based on grammatical issues and not Biblical issues.
When I reference Biblical issues I definitely include references.

So no double standard... because a double standard would have to apply to a similar issue.
That is not the case here.

If I comment on the weather... should I include Biblical references?

 

[JulieB67]

The Great Tribulation will be the reverse so to speak, it will be God persecuting the World. He will not visit His own wrath (not the tribulation wrath) on His own, the church, so He WILL take them out of the world first

Again, wrath is not tribulation. God can take care of his own. There's not one verse that states at the appointed time the church will be removed from this earth.

the 7 churches are 7 congregations of Jews.

False, many of the churches have faults but most have labored in "his name". Remember this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. He's telling them to repent, etc of those faults and even states to one he will come like a thief in an hour they do not expect if they don't repent, etc.

Many will depart from the faith and that's why it's so important to understand the timing.

 

[dfw69]

Well the original wording is ekklesia. This has been translated to church since at least approx King James version. Church then is a typical Christian gathering, But ekklesia actually means a congregation of people, and can apply to a congregation in a synagogue just as well

G1577 - ekklēsia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1577 - ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of and a derivative of ; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

www.blueletterbible.org

Also, as Israel ceased to exist after around 70AD for most of the last 2000 years Christians have thought that any mention of Israel in NT prophecy could only be symbolic of the christian church, not actual Israel. Israel exists again of course, the prophecy of Ezekiel, the dry bones being given flesh and coming to life again, thats Israel. Anyway, point is Israel exists again so much of the prophecy about Israel is, well, about Israel & the Jews. Most of the Bible, including from book of Hebrews on in NT (its literally called Hebrews), is Jewish scripture.

As to the 7 churches being 7 Jewish congregations, please watch this:

Basically, the church (the body of Christ) is raptured out at the start of the tribulation. God then ends the age of the Dispensation of Grace during which He saved the Gentiles (any Jews too if they believed in Christ), and thereafter reinstates the Law of Moses & turns His attention back to Israel & the Jews (the bride of Christ) to fulfill all His promises made under the Abrahamic covenant He has with the Jews. He then takes the Jews through the 7 year tribulation to judge, purify & save them, at least those that turn to Him (2/3 wont).
At the end of 7 years He establishes the Millennial Kingdom, a Jewish Kingdom as He is the Jewish Messiah & Jewish High Priest, for 1000 years. After the Rapture the church is not on earth anymore so the book of Revelation is not about the church. Israel will be the dominant nation of the world for 1000 years.

24 elders are the 12 apostles + 12 Jewish patriarchs (1 from each tribe), literally 24 people.

Also a good general video on the rightly dividing the word of God approach

Nice reply …


I can see the possibility that the church of laodiceans could be a Jewish Christian church or Christians following Jewish roots types awaiting a messianic age

But one thing I see that confused me was the thought of reinstating the mosaic law …I know many are returning to the law and if a temple is erected there will be even more wanting to worship in that manor … but here’s the thing … in Matt 24 Jesus said this gospel shall be peached up to the end of days
And even in revelation there is an angel seen preaching the everlasting gospel

So what’s the purpose to reinstate the law that Jesus supposedly nailed to the cross according to the gospel ? Only for the purpose of judgement right? I mean the gospel is supposed to save you from wrath and mosaic law judgement

So returning to the law brings judgement and wrath

Yet we see the gospel is still being preached after the rapture to save from the wrath to come

 

[dfw69]

And when God has persecuted the world in the past He has never removed His people... He prepared a way through tribulation but not a removal from tribulation.

So what ? Can not God do a new thing? Was not God having a Son through a woman a new thing?

Jesus promises to return to make a home with us in His Fathers house in heaven John 14 and said that the body must be born again by the spirit to enter in which is also a new thing and the resurrection of millions at the sound of a trumpet is a new thing and the transformation from mortal to immortal will be a new thing

So to take out of the way from world powers by rapture before tribulation will be a new thing

 

[dwb001]

So what ? Can not God do a new thing? Was not God having a Son through a woman a new thing?

Jesus promises to return to make a home with us in His Fathers house in heaven John 14 and said that the body must be born again by the spirit to enter in which is also a new thing and the resurrection of millions at the sound of a trumpet is a new thing and the transformation from mortal to immortal will be a new thing

So to take out of the way from world powers by rapture before tribulation will be a new thing

God can do a new thing... but very seldom does.
God having a Son through a woman was not a new thing. If God had had a Son through a man or a rock it would be a new thing.
You describe the everyday and call it a new thing. Have not souls since the creation been transformed from mortal to immortal? Yes. Commonplace.

To take out of the way would break every example of types and foreshadowing we have in the entire Bible.
So God can do a new thing but would He throw away every example He has put in place for the past 6k years?

 

[dfw69]

God can do a new thing... but very seldom does.

The rapture will be a new thing

God having a Son through a woman was not a new thing.

How many times before did god have a son with a woman how many times after … yes it’s a new thing

If God had had a Son through a man or a rock it would be a new thing.

Having a son with a woman is just as new this is just silly reasoning

You describe the everyday and call it a new thing. Have not souls since the creation been transformed from mortal to immortal? Yes. Commonplace.

No Jesus was the first to experience it we are next

To take out of the way would break every example of types and foreshadowing we have in the entire Bible.

So ..it’s not a crime for god to do so

So God can do a new thing but would He throw away every example He has put in place for the past 6k years?

Yes sir and I’m fine with whatever God does because I don’t put limits on his work for us if it’s scripted

 

[dwb001]

The rapture will be a new thing

If it happens as you think it will.

How many times before did god have a son with a woman how many times after … yes it’s a new thing

Nope... all sons came from a woman. Everyday occurrence.

Having a son with a woman is just as new this is just silly reasoning

Nothing new about a woman giving birth to a son.

No Jesus was the first to experience it we are next

So Elijah is a physical human in heaven before God?

So ..it’s not a crime for god to do so

Is God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?
So you would have God throw away His method of doing things in favour of your theories?

Yes sir and I’m fine with whatever God does because I don’t put limits on his work for us if it’s scripted

Neither do I. I believe He will do what He said He would do... no matter how unbelievable I find it to be.
And He has not said anything about a Rapture as the modern Christian world sees it.
So that makes all His unbelievable statements in Revelation... believable.

 

[dfw69]

If it happens as you think it will.

How else will it happen?

Nope... all sons came from a woman. Everyday occurrence.

But no son before came from God through the Holy Spirit born of a woman …That is why He is named the only begotten Son of God

Nothing new about a woman giving birth to a son.

Your dancing away from the truth ..God having a child with a woman was a new thing that God himself accomplished for a specific purpose

The rapture will also be for a specific purpose

So Elijah is a physical human in heaven before God?

Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven was a new thing ….but to be transformed to obtain new eternal immortal bodies for millions upon millions of people so that a heavenly citizenship will manifest will be a new thing

Is God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?

Does not mean he doesn’t do new things Isaiah 43:19

So you would have God throw away His method of doing things in favour of your theories?

No I accept what God said He will do and aceept the promises revealed in scripture

It’s like Abraham who was willing to sacrificed His son as a sin offering knowing the power of God is able to resurrect him to fulfill the promises through his son .. though I’m sure it was strange that god was asking him to perform a pagan thing .. he obeyed and god imputed eternal righteousness upon him

Neither do I. I believe He will do what He said He would do... no matter how unbelievable I find it to be.

You believe in God believe also in Me in my fathers house there exist many rooms if it was not so I would not have told you …

And He has not said anything about a Rapture as the modern Christian world sees it.

I’m sorry you don’t see a place for you in the house of the Lord that you would receive by way of rapture when Jesus appears in the sky … I believe Him ..He is the way the truth and the life no one can come to the Father but by Him

 

[dwb001]

How else will it happen?

At the right time. Rev 20:12-13

But no son before came from God through the Holy Spirit born of a woman …That is why He is named the only begotten Son of God

Now you just went from the type to the real thing.

Your dancing away from the truth ..God having a child with a woman was a new thing that God himself accomplished for a specific purpose

Childbirth is commonplace. Does God not create all man in the womb. Every day occurrence.

The rapture will also be for a specific purpose

Not the way you see the "rapture" happening.

Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven was a new thing ….but to be transformed to obtain new eternal immortal bodies for millions upon millions of people so that a heavenly citizenship will manifest will be a new thing

If the far past was a new thing... the later is not new but was foreshadowed.

Does not mean he doesn’t do new things Isaiah 43:19

But He seldom does a new thing.

No I accept what God said He will do and aceept the promises revealed in scripture

It’s like Abraham who was willing to sacrificed His son as a sin offering knowing the power of God is able to resurrect him to fulfill the promises through his son .. though I’m sure it was strange that god was asking him to perform a pagan thing .. he obeyed and god imputed eternal righteousness upon him


You believe in God believe also in Me in my fathers house there exist many rooms if it was not so I would not have told you …


I’m sorry you don’t see a place for you in the house of the Lord that you would receive by way of rapture when Jesus appears in the sky … I believe Him ..He is the way the truth and the life no one can come to the Father but by Him

Where does Jesus say that the way to His Fathers house is through Rapture?
So none of the dead in Christ will ever be in the Fathers house?
Do you see the flaws in your arguments?

 

[dfw69]

At the right time. Rev 20:12-13

Rev 20:12-13 does not say Jesus reveal Jesus appear in the sky sounds the first trump and a resurrection takes place and then the last trump sounds and the living are transformed immoral then go up to meet Jesus in the air … this description that Paul mentions is not found in rev . So to assume it’s talking about rev 20 is just false doctrine and you should not believe in it

Where does Jesus say that the way to His Fathers house is through Rapture?

He did not …Paul did ..When he returns to meet us in the air

So none of the dead in Christ will ever be in the Fathers house?

Actually the dead in Christ are first to be immortalized to be able to enter in at the sound of the first trumpet

Do you see the flaws in your arguments?

Your welcome to point out the flaws you see in your misunderstanding of my understanding

 

[dwb001]

Rev 20:12-13 does not say Jesus reveal Jesus appear in the sky sounds the first trump and a resurrection takes place and then the last trump sounds and the living are transformed immoral then go up to meet Jesus in the air … this description that Paul mentions is not found in rev . So to assume it’s talking about rev 20 is just false doctrine and you should not believe in it

You are correct that Rev 20:12-13 does not say what outlined. But neither does anywhere else in the Bible. You are adding quite a bit of detail.
We should definitely believe Rev 20:12-13 over the nonsense you mentioned.

He did not …Paul did ..When he returns to meet us in the air

Then why did you bring up a Jesus quote then deny it's applicability?

Actually the dead in Christ are first to be immortalized to be able to enter in at the sound of the first trumpet

Not according to Revelation... but you do you.

Your welcome to point out the flaws you see in your misunderstanding of my understanding

Hahah.
But wrong is still wrong.

 

[dfw69]

You are correct that Rev 20:12-13 does not say what outlined. But neither does anywhere else in the Bible. You are adding quite a bit of detail.
We should definitely believe Rev 20:12-13 over the nonsense you mentioned.

rev 20 resurrection is to recieve the second death so you do not want to attend that

Paul’s description of the rapture is to receive the promises given in the first Seder Jesus had with His disciples

It’s not nonsense at all but the good news … the gospel is the hope of glory

Then why did you bring up a Jesus quote then deny it's applicability?

I quoted Jesus who said He will come to take us to the Fathers house and when He said the Spirit will give birth to spiritual beings …but How was not stated until Paul revealed the rapture

The only purpose to transform into the children of God is to enter heaven and Gods presence


Jesus said He was the way to the Father house so how will this take place?

Paul revealed the mystery of the rapture and how Jesus would accomplish it

Not according to Revelation...

Rev 20 reveals a different event as stated and taking place after the millennium

Do you not believe Pauls testimony of the rapture? Are you saying Jesus will not appear in the sky to sound 2 trumpets for the church to enter glory because you refuse to put your trust in Paul’s account?

 

[dwb001]

rev 20 resurrection is to recieve the second death so you do not want to attend that

If that is all you think it is... maybe read it again.
You are missing a lot of the details.

Paul’s description of the rapture is to receive the promises given in the first Seder Jesus had with His disciples

References.

It’s not nonsense at all but the good news … the gospel is the hope of glory

The modified version that is taught now days is nonsense.

I quoted Jesus who said He will come to take us to the Fathers house and when He said the Spirit will give birth to spiritual beings …but How was not stated until Paul revealed the rapture

You have a how attached to an incorrect what.

The only purpose to transform into the children of God is to enter heaven and Gods presence


Jesus said He was the way to the Father house so how will this take place?

Paul revealed the mystery of the rapture and how Jesus would accomplish it

You are leaving out the when.

Rev 20 reveals a different event as stated and taking place after the millennium

Not a different event. Yes after the millennium.
Maybe you have to reread some references to get the clearer picture.

Do you not believe Pauls testimony of the rapture? Are you saying Jesus will not appear in the sky to sound 2 trumpets for the church to enter glory because you refuse to put your trust in Paul’s account?

Which testimony of the rapture? The one written down or the one you believe?
What two trumpets?
Are you sure you are quoting things correctly?
Wow you leave out every Biblical text you mention.
Should I put my trust in Paul or in Jesus?
Revelation is the timeline put forth by Jesus.
Paul does not lay out when this event occurs.


Your faith in what you have been taught is a barrier to seeing what is written.
Try just reading the Bible without all the baggage that your teachers have added.

 

[Sorn]

Nice reply …


I can see the possibility that the church of laodiceans could be a Jewish Christian church or Christians following Jewish roots types awaiting a messianic age

But one thing I see that confused me was the thought of reinstating the mosaic law …I know many are returning to the law and if a temple is erected there will be even more wanting to worship in that manor … but here’s the thing … in Matt 24 Jesus said this gospel shall be peached up to the end of days
And even in revelation there is an angel seen preaching the everlasting gospel

So what’s the purpose to reinstate the law that Jesus supposedly nailed to the cross according to the gospel ? Only for the purpose of judgement right? I mean the gospel is supposed to save you from wrath and mosaic law judgement

So returning to the law brings judgement and wrath

Yet we see the gospel is still being preached after the rapture to save from the wrath to come

"in Matt 24 Jesus said this gospel shall be preached up to the end of days" yes but which Gospel?? that's the key!
Jesus hadn't died as yet so what gospel was He talking about?? He was talking about the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' as distinct from the 'Gospel of Grace' introduced by God when the Jews rejected the message of Christ & given directly to Saul (Paul).
Jesus was acting in good faith, the Jews could have NOT rejected Him and the generation alive at the time would have seen the millennial kingdom but they DID reject Him so God put that last 7 years that sees the Millennial kingdom in aside while He extended salvation to the Gentiles.

Paul is to the Gentiles as Moses is to the Jews.

The Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus mentioned was this:
1) Believe Jesus is the Messiah & High Priest to the Jews after the order of Melchizedek
2) Do the works of the Law of Moses, so observe the feast and the statues given to Moses & the Jews - Matt 19:17
3) Repent
4) Be baptized ( a work)
This relies on works as a way to show ones faith

The Gospel of Grace is this:
1) Believe Jesus is the Son of God made flesh
2) That He died for our sins
3) That He was buried and rose again so we will too
- Essentially faith 1st then works outflow from that

After the rapture the Gospel of Grace is no longer in operation, it will be the Gospel of the Kingdom that is preached once again by believing Jews up until the end of the tribulation.
Watch this 7 min video to see what Jesus's ministry was about

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