The Purpose of the Rapture.

[dwb001]

I said it does agree with the 7 letters. What do you see differently?

I just don't see if you installed your wording into the 7 letters... it just does not work thematically.
Just language would argue against your position.

 

[dwb001]

Yes, there has been and still are martyrs however it is not the mark of the `special` Christian. We are all in Christ and if some have to die then God gives them grace to do that, if some go through terrible difficulties, illness, disease, loss of family etc then God gives them the grace to go through that. We all need to `die to self` so that the Christ life can come forth, and that is the focus.

The Body of Christ does need to go to the Lord`s own throne in the highest, (Rev. 3: 21) for there they will, with the Lord judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

Your Rev 3:21 reference only applies to one of the 7 churches.
What about the other 6?
And no the 7 letters are not to 7 different church ages(of which we are the last)... we can all agree that that old idea never held any water.

 

[Marilyn C]

I just don't see if you installed your wording into the 7 letters... it just does not work thematically.
Just language would argue against your position.

Ephesus - had the deeds of the Nicolaitans - lording it over. (not God`s truth, 3 John 10)
Pergamos - doctrine of Nicolaitans & Balaam. (2 Peter 2: 5) (loved wages of unrighteousness - not God`s truth)
Thyatira - Jezebel, false prophets. (2 Peter 2: 1)
Sardis - their own name. (1 Cor. 1: 11 - 13)
Philadelphia - kept God`s word. (Rev. 3: 8)
Laodicea - didn`t hold fast to the Head (His truth, His word) (Col. 2: 19, Gal. 1: 6)

 

[Marilyn C]

Your Rev 3:21 reference only applies to one of the 7 churches.
What about the other 6?
And no the 7 letters are not to 7 different church ages(of which we are the last)... we can all agree that that old idea never held any water.

All the rewards are for the whole Body of Christ.

 

[dwb001]

All the rewards are for the whole Body of Christ.

That is not what the text says.
Why are you disagreeing with the Word of God?

 

[dwb001]

Ephesus - had the deeds of the Nicolaitans - lording it over. (not God`s truth, 3 John 10)
Pergamos - doctrine of Nicolaitans & Balaam. (2 Peter 2: 5) (loved wages of unrighteousness - not God`s truth)
Thyatira - Jezebel, false prophets. (2 Peter 2: 1)
Sardis - their own name. (1 Cor. 1: 11 - 13)
Philadelphia - kept God`s word. (Rev. 3: 8)
Laodicea - didn`t hold fast to the Head (His truth, His word) (Col. 2: 19, Gal. 1: 6)

That does not help with the linguistic problems of inserting your texts into the overcoming passages.
Nice that you have taken small parts out of the letters to bolster your opinions... but the portions your provide are far from an accurate picture.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is not what the text says.
Why are you disagreeing with the Word of God?

Those 7 churches were not all operating in the first century. There were not believers in one town being martyred while down the road a few miles others were rich and enjoying life. That is not history.

 

[Marilyn C]

That does not help with the linguistic problems of inserting your texts into the overcoming passages.
Nice that you have taken small parts out of the letters to bolster your opinions... but the portions your provide are far from an accurate picture.

I notice you only give your opinion in your comments and not discuss scripture giving scripture for your answer.

 

[dfw69]

What did he overcome?

If he got raptured out of all the things that are coming, then he didn't have to overcome anything.

as if we never had to overcome everything this evil world has thrown at us and yet we hold on to the faith and await our father to appear .. you must have a great life but many are not so fortunate that they need the end of days to prove their love for jesus…

Do you know what it’s like to have a child abducted
Or a family member murdered
Do you know what it’s like to be poor
To go hard working just to survive week to week
Do you know the pain and suffering coming from evil products
Do you suffer from cancer yet believe god for healing even unto death
The list goes on and on of the many trials and tribulations saints endure daily so many injustices and thefts from our evil masters ruling this world yet still keep their sanity to love others and family members for the sake of eternal life

This comment of yours is so insensitive that a person can say and a slap on the face for every saint holding on to the faith in any day and age

Anyway there is no meriting the rapture it’s a gift for believing in the father and son doctrine

 

[dfw69]

God does other people in the trib, going out to preach that the Christ is coming to set up His righteous rulership over the nations.

dfw you seem to have a great heart for the lost. I`m sure that is from the Lord. Now, when the Body of Christ is in heaven we will then be involved in bringing judgment upon the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) That is a job that is needed to stop all the evils and pain and suffering from evil men and women.

God does other people in the trib, going out to preach that the Christ is coming to set up His righteous rulership over the nations.

will see

 

[dwb001]

I notice you only give your opinion in your comments and not discuss scripture giving scripture for your answer.

My response has not yet dictated the need for Scripture references very much.
When needed I will include them.
Don't worry.

 

[dwb001]

Those 7 churches were not all operating in the first century. There were not believers in one town being martyred while down the road a few miles others were rich and enjoying life. That is not history.

You have sources for what you are claiming?
And I am also not claiming anything about those being first century issues.

 

[dfw69]

What did he overcome?

If he got raptured out of all the things that are coming, then he didn't have to overcome anything.

It does however appear that the loadiceans will be rebuked and have to overcome some discipline and correction coming from the Lord

Those that repent and open when he stands at the door knocking will receive that reward mentioned

 

[dfw69]

It is talking about the Jews who go through the tribulation. At the rapture God will take the church out of the world and He will then turn His attention back to the Jews but they will go through the time of Jacob's troubles and 2/3 will die, many also having taken the mark of the beast etc

But to those that believe in Jesus right to the end, even if it means their lives, then God will resurrect them and they are the ones that passage refers to, along with any that make it all the way through the tribulation

Why do you believe the laodiceans are Jews ? It says the church of laodiceans not synoguge of laodiceans ..just a thought I was wondering

 

[Sorn]

Why do you believe the laodiceans are Jews ? It says the church of laodiceans not synoguge of laodiceans ..just a thought I was wondering

Well the original wording is ekklesia. This has been translated to church since at least approx King James version. Church then is a typical Christian gathering, But ekklesia actually means a congregation of people, and can apply to a congregation in a synagogue just as well

G1577 - ekklēsia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1577 - ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of and a derivative of ; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

www.blueletterbible.org

Also, as Israel ceased to exist after around 70AD for most of the last 2000 years Christians have thought that any mention of Israel in NT prophecy could only be symbolic of the christian church, not actual Israel. Israel exists again of course, the prophecy of Ezekiel, the dry bones being given flesh and coming to life again, thats Israel. Anyway, point is Israel exists again so much of the prophecy about Israel is, well, about Israel & the Jews. Most of the Bible, including from book of Hebrews on in NT (its literally called Hebrews), is Jewish scripture.

As to the 7 churches being 7 Jewish congregations, please watch this:

Basically, the church (the body of Christ) is raptured out at the start of the tribulation. God then ends the age of the Dispensation of Grace during which He saved the Gentiles (any Jews too if they believed in Christ), and thereafter reinstates the Law of Moses & turns His attention back to Israel & the Jews (the bride of Christ) to fulfill all His promises made under the Abrahamic covenant He has with the Jews. He then takes the Jews through the 7 year tribulation to judge, purify & save them, at least those that turn to Him (2/3 wont).
At the end of 7 years He establishes the Millennial Kingdom, a Jewish Kingdom as He is the Jewish Messiah & Jewish High Priest, for 1000 years. After the Rapture the church is not on earth anymore so the book of Revelation is not about the church. Israel will be the dominant nation of the world for 1000 years.

24 elders are the 12 apostles + 12 Jewish patriarchs (1 from each tribe), literally 24 people.

Also a good general video on the rightly dividing the word of God approach

 

[dwb001]

Well the original wording is ekklesia. This has been translated to church since approx King James version. Church then is a typical Christian gathering, But ekklesia actually means a congregation of people, and can apply to a congregation in a synagogue just as well

G1577 - ekklēsia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1577 - ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of and a derivative of ; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

www.blueletterbible.org

Also, as Israel ceased to exist after around 70AD for most of the last 2000 years Christians have thought that any mention of Israel in NT prophecy could only be symbolic of the christian church, not actual Israel. Israel exists again of course, the prophecy of Ezekiel, the dry bones being given flesh and coming to life again, thats Israel. Anyway, point is Israel exists again so much of the prophecy about Israel is, well, about Israel & the Jews. Most of the Bible, including from book of Hebrews on in NT (its literally called Hebrews), is Jewish scripture.

As to the 7 churches being 7 Jewish congregations, please watch this:

Basically, the church (the body of Christ) is raptured out at the start of the tribulation. God then ends the age of the Dispensation of Grace during which He saved the Gentiles (any Jews too if they believed in Christ), and thereafter reinstates the Law of Moses & turns His attention back to Israel & the Jews (the bride of Christ) to fulfill all His promises made under the Abrahamic covenant He has with the Jews. He then takes the Jews through the 7 year tribulation to judge, purify & save them, at least those that turn to Him (2/3 wont).
At the end of 7 years He establishes the Millennial Kingdom, a Jewish Kingdom as He is the Jewish Messiah & Jewish High Priest, for 1000 years. After the Rapture the church is not on earth anymore so the book of Revelation is not about the church. Israel will be the dominant nation of the world for 1000 years.

24 elders are the 12 apostles + 12 Jewish patriarchs (1 from each tribe), literally 24 people.

If ekklesia is also a synagogue... why are there two different Greek words used in Rev 3:7 and 3:9?

Rev 3:7 ... to the "ekklesia" in Philly write...
Rev 3:9 ... them of the "sunagoge" of Satan...

So the argument that ekklesia is applied to a synagogue seems to be on weak ground.

 

[Sorn]

There is no purpose for a pretrib rapture. Christians have always went through tribulation. And that will not change.

Christians have always gone or experienced tribulation (persecution) to a greater or lesser extent. However these tribulations have been the 'world' persecuting the Christian.

The Great Tribulation will be the reverse so to speak, it will be God persecuting the World. He will not visit His own wrath (not the tribulation wrath) on His own, the church, so He WILL take them out of the world first

 

[Sorn]

If ekklesia is also a synagogue... why are there two different Greek words used in Rev 3:7 and 3:9?

Rev 3:7 ... to the "ekklesia" in Philly write...
Rev 3:9 ... them of the "sunagoge" of Satan...

So the argument that ekklesia is applied to a synagogue seems to be on weak ground.

Just because there are 2 words that can be used does not mean they can't be interchanged .

I can say 'to the Church of St Michaels' or I can say 'to the congregation of St Michaels', both are saying the same thing! No law I can't describe the same thing in 2 different but perfectly valid ways that any intelligent person will understand

 

[dwb001]

Christians have always gone or experienced tribulation (persecution) to a greater or lesser extent. However these tribulations ahev been the 'world' persecuting the Christian.

The Great Tribulation will be the reverse so to speak, it will be God persecuting the World. He will not visit His own wrath (not the tribulation wrath) on His own, the church so He WILL take them out of the world first

And when God has persecuted the world in the past He has never removed His people... He prepared a way through tribulation but not a removal from tribulation.

 

[dwb001]

Just because there are 2 words that can be used does not mean they can't be interchanged .

I can say 'to the Church of St Michaels' or I can say 'to the congregation of St Michaels', both are saying the same thing! No law I can't describe the same thing in 2 different but perfectly valid ways that any intelligent person will understand

Right... but you are basing a theology on a single word that in the same passages uses a different word to show a difference.
You are removing the difference that the author included.
Not exactly keeping the word of God, but rather shaping the Scriptures to fit a theology or opinion.

You can definitely use different words for the same thing... if you are the author. Are you the author of Revelation?