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The purpose of adhering to gender roles

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Jane_the_Bane

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angellica said:
There are "trousers" that are made specifically for women that aren't made for men. There are not skirts made for men. That's why the different reaction.
1. There used to be no such thing as specifically female trousers. They only appeared on the market after it became socially acceptable for women to wear such "male" apparel.
2. There ARE skirts made for men, and I'm not talking about Scottish kilts, either:

martin_emblemw450.jpg

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Catherineanne

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I said sometimes it is because of selfishness that the person divorced, and sometimes selfishness coming from her husband that made her want to divorce.

That is what I believe on the subject, you can give reasons why I'm wrong if you would like to be involved in an adult like discussion.

What is there to discuss? Your mind is made up; those who divorce do so out of selfishness.
 
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LJSGM

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What is there to discuss? Your mind is made up; those who divorce do so out of selfishness.

Nope, I did not say that.

Selfishness in some way, shape or form, coming from the wife, husband, or both is the reason for the breakdown of a marriage.
 
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WatersMoon110

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Selfishness in some way, shape or form, coming from the wife, husband, or both is the reason for the breakdown of a marriage.
Isn't getting marriage also selfish? Marriage is a big party celebrating the union of two people - and the legal and social benefits of that union. Sound pretty darn selfish to me.

I know that my marriage was selfish - I love my husband and want to marry him so that we could have legal and social support for our continuing union.
 
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Catherineanne

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Selfishness in some way, shape or form, coming from the wife, husband, or both is the reason for the breakdown of a marriage.

I think it is pretty certain that any generalisation such as this is going to be meaningless to the majority of cases. It is an oversimplification of a very complex, very multifaceted situation, which will differ from one couple to another. To write the breakdown of these complicated relationships down to selfishness is quite simply inadequate.
 
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cantata

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Unless you can think of some other reason.

Well, yes, I can.

How's this one: one of them has a religious conversion, and, as a consequence, radically changes their views about philosophy, ethics, and politics. The couple decides, after much discussion, to amicably split because their worldviews are now simply too different for either of them to cope with living together.
 
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LJSGM

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Well, yes, I can.

How's this one: one of them has a religious conversion, and, as a consequence, radically changes their views about philosophy, ethics, and politics. The couple decides, after much discussion, to amicably split because their worldviews are now simply too different for either of them to cope with living together.

Has that ever happened? ^_^

Well, what is the reason they don't want to live together? Because it's an inconvience them having different beliefs?
 
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Catherineanne

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Unless you can think of some other reason.

Every situation is different. As Tolstoy says in Anna Karenina; 'All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way'.
 
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cantata

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Has that ever happened? ^_^

I have no doubt.

Well, what is the reason they don't want to live together? Because it's an inconvience them having different beliefs?

Because they disagree about everything, including things that are highly relevant to their relationship: contraception, abortion, the roles of husband and wife, &c.

By the way, let's assume for the sake of argument that they have no children or other dependents.
 
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LJSGM

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I have no doubt.



Because they disagree about everything, including things that are highly relevant to their relationship: contraception, abortion, the roles of husband and wife, &c.

By the way, let's assume for the sake of argument that they have no children or other dependents.

It's an inconvience to have to compromise with your spouse all the time? :p
 
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cantata

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It's an inconvience to have to compromise with your spouse all the time? :p

I suppose it depends what you think is more important: your relationship or your principles. There's no way I would give up using contraception just because my partner wanted me to. There's no way I would put on a pinny and give up my career just because my partner wanted me to. There's more to life than one's "other half", you know, and if you and that "other half" have fundamental differences which mean you have to make unacceptable demands on one another, it's time for a parting of ways.

If you oppose one another on a fundamental moral issue which affects your everyday life, I don't see how you can live together.
 
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LJSGM

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which mean you have to make unacceptable demands on one another, it's time for a parting of ways.

Yes, they shouldn't be making unacceptable demands of one another, that is selfish.

It depends on what one thinks is "unacceptable."

I'm not denying that it isn't very complicated.

My only point in the beginning was that the break down in marriage (the majority of the time) is not because they were not playing their roles, but because of selfishness.
 
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cantata

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My only point in the beginning was that the break down in marriage (the majority of the time) is not because they were not playing their roles, but because of selfishness.

Well, I'm grateful for at least this small concession.

I think framing it as selfishness, however, isn't helpful to anyone. If neither of them wants to be married any more, and especially if there are no children, there's nothing selfish about parting.
 
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mpok1519

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and with that kind of attitude the divorce rates and turmoils in familys today will never improve. Doing "what you want" could be anything, even killing someone. Marriage isn't always about doing what you want.

lol You're comparing "Reaching for your dreams to do what you want and being happy" with "killing someone" ? Duuuude! Whats wrong with you? lol And I'm talking about in life, not just in marriage; in life, YOU, are supposed to do what YOU want to do, not do what anyone else wants you to do. Thats what I mean.

I didn't mean "If you like killing people, you should"(and many do; they are either serial killers, or in combat over seas), and its kind of strange how you can misinterpret a very simple idea.

Reaching for your dreams, and killing people, aren't exactly comparable.

I love it when I say "Do what makes you happy" and someone can misinterpret it as "Do, what mkes you happy, murder included." lol It makes me laugh horrendously.



Taking care of your children or writing peoms dosen't reduce a mans masulinity. However in todays near non-existant roles and with feminism causing even more confusion and turmoil many men today will have identity problems as well as a plan later on as far as rearing a family. If there are no roles then there is no plan, and if there is no plan how can you expect to raise a decent family when you don't even know the role your in. Again, this makes is more justifiable for fathers to leave their familys and children simply because they have no idea anymore what role to be or what to do, and since many women are so abrasive towards the male role of supporter-provider it makes it even more confused and convoluted.

So, you agree that a woman can go out, make $200K a year while dad stays at home and takes care of the kids? It sounds like you have absolutly no problem with feminism. And you must be careful what you say; yes, many women are abrasive, but no more than how many men are abrasive and even abusive. If a man has an identity problem, its a personal problem rather than society's. If a man "doesn't know who he is" its not wise to blame this lack of identity on womens' equal rights movements. A man's identity has always been the same, only womens' role in society has been expanded. This is no way should take away from mens' social identity.



Also children are taught about sex at an extremely early age in most public schools and thus their innocence is damaged. Bullys tend to actually come more from broken familys that had physical or emotional abuse and divorce, so again we see it because of a family structural problem and the roles of wife and husband. Children need both these roles to respond too and it is very important to they' re developement. Its good for a boy to see his father be the supporter, protector and provider, and in turn it will teach him to do the same. Just as a daughter seeing her mother act in a motherly, feminine, modest manner, which in turn will teach her to act the same in thus increase her chances of having a successfull family and meeting a good husband.

Children need to be taught about sex otherwise they become sexually repressed(imagine not knowing what sex is until you get married, as MANY men and women did in the early 1900's); it is of wide consensus from doctors, pediatricians, and child psychologists that sex needs to be openly discussed in an orderly, honest and safe enviornment. Trust me, sex-ed is not a bad things; this is why you should be able to duscuss sex with your children as soon as you can before the TV/the child's schoolyard friends do it for you......Also, children who are bullys can also get it FROM their dad, y'know? I knew plenty of bullys in school, and truth be told, most of them were from two-parent households. I don't think what you are saying has much validity in it. A bully can be a bully even if his parents are good parents. Again, the feminist movement isn't to blame for all these tangents you're bringing up.

The dialogue between man and woman has changed drastically. Men today talk to women in a very disrespectful objective manner. Women too talk to men in a disrespectful, brass, un-ladylike manner. Because neither person knows their role they talk to each other in any way they please. It is the loss of chivalry that domestic abuse has risen so considerably. With feminism making women more masculine men will start treating women more roughly and be more prone to violence. ANd with this increase in turmoil because there are no roles we can only see why divorce has increased the way it has. Because in a true God fearing woman and man a wife wouldn't even think of talking to her husband in the way most Western women do and visa versa. If that mutual respect between the roles of wife and husband cannot be met, then we will see the death of what very little chivalry we have left and continue to see the ruin of many familys and rising divorce rates.

Trust me bro, men and women have always spoken harsh to each other if they felt a need to; just because we didn't see any of this behavior on "LEave it to Beaver" in the 50's doesn't mean this behavior didn't exist. You're sugesting that because women have equal rights, men have reacted violently towards women because of it? Dude, thats MEN'S problem! If we as men were REAL men, we wouldn't care what a woman does with HER life. A little boy would get upset when a woman takes his place ont he football/basketball team, but a real man would suck it up and say "y'know, maybe she did deserve it more than me, bc shes that good."

It sounds like society has less of a problem with equal rights and more with little whiney boys crying because now they have more competition.


No the maculinization of women today has perverted the males role between man and woman. A man who has a strong faith and understands the roles of man and woman could not even think of walking out on their wife and children.

It happens ALLLLL the time; people of strong faith will always find their faith shaken by ome life-changing event that takes a toll on any corner of one's life. Men of strong faith leave their families all the time.

But if this solid footing and role is confused or perverted being a dead beat dad is alot more justifiable.

No, its not. Being a dead-beat dad is never justifiable, and if people think that because women have equal rights to do what makes them happy and this justifies being a dead-beat dad, those people have sever psychological problems.

They figure that if the woman is "independant" and 'liberalized' then she can do it herself without his help anymore. With the thinking that everyone is independent the husband and wife no longer think together as a unit. Marriage is a giving oneself to the other person and working together as a unit.

Thats the thing; many women realize that they are already a self-sufficient unit on their own, and infact, many women realize they operate MORE EFFECIENTLY as a singular unit of their own. Many women are simply dragged down by marriage. ITs not their fault, marriage just simply doesn't work for them.

The feminism movement is a good thing; we have our roles in society.

Heres a good role; be the best person you can be and do what makes you happy.

Thats about as simple of a role you can get that encompasses all degress of positivity.

And I'm still having a problem with you suggesting that "doing what you want that makes you happy" is somehow comparable to homocide....I think thats simply a childish thing to retort with.
 
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wanderingone

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Have you ever seen the amazing flick La Vie Rose?

I loved this movie. (Netflix has it for anyone who is interested) They occasionally show it on cable as well. I think the family and friends and their response to this child was well portrayed. I can understand fear of not fitting in, fear of your child not fitting in. When you have a kid who is "different" you are caught up in trying to help them become themselves, and often face abuse from "well meaning" family and friends along the way. Trying to figure out "why" your kid wants to do the things they do, wear the things they wear etc.. wanting not to cause them hurt, wanting to accept them, but being afraid for them.. it's a tightrope walk.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose you had a baby boy and you were given a pink sweater for him as a gift from a friend. Would you be happy for him to wear it?

Would you be okay with your baby girl wearing a blue sweater with a fire engine on it?

And, I would ask you again, do you think it is acceptable for a man to be a ballet dancer or a woman a bricklayer? How would you feel if your children took up these careers?

Pink is a feminine color, so no I wouldn't give it to a boy. Loading up your child on feminine items is a wonderful way to pervert his identity.

Ballet dancing idk. There are many men who do ballet and it dosent' affect their maculinity at all. Just as long as the dancer is wearing mens clothing and not a dress.
 
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stekaya

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While the majority of gender roles are based on what should be expected of the sex, some do have a legitimate basis in biology. A guy listening to Mariah Carey would probably get called a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] a lot. That's pretty dumb, since musical tastes really have nothing to do with how you are as a person. My itunes library ranges from Waking the Cadaver to Mozart, so depending on what I'm listening to at any given time you'd think I was anywhere from an intellectual to a serial killer :p

Things like women not participating in major league sports, however, do have a somewhat justifiable basis in biology. For the most part, women simply do not have the skeletal structure and muscle mass of men. While they can certainly develop it to the level of the average man, they aren't imbued with it naturally as men are. Women not serving in the military is also somewhat logical, too; tests have shown that male soldiers will put themselves in great danger to help a wounded female soldier, greater than that of other male soldiers. Heroism aside, the natural male instinct to protect females can interfere with tactical problem solving and potentially get people needlessly killed.

Oh, and if the boy described in the OP was wearing a pink midriff shirt and was cute, I certainly wouldn't care about gender roles :3
 
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CreedIsChrist

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lol You're comparing "Reaching for your dreams to do what you want and being happy" with "killing someone" ? Duuuude! Whats wrong with you? lol And I'm talking about in life, not just in marriage; in life, YOU, are supposed to do what YOU want to do, not do what anyone else wants you to do. Thats what I mean.

I didn't mean "If you like killing people, you should"(and many do; they are either serial killers, or in combat over seas), and its kind of strange how you can misinterpret a very simple idea.

Reaching for your dreams, and killing people, aren't exactly comparable.


No, I was making a comparison of your theory of doing what you want. Its a very selfish self centered idea because to survive there are many things we need to do that we don't want. If a woman dosen't want to take care of her kids anymore does that mean she dosen;t have to simply because she dosen't want to? Again it is this selfish attitude that is hurting so many familys today because husbands and wives think more about always doing what they want instead of what is needed.

As a christian im disappointed hearing that from a professing christian. Since we are told to make many sacrifices in the gospel. very saddening

I love it when I say "Do what makes you happy" and someone can misinterpret it as "Do, what mkes you happy, murder included." lol It makes me laugh horrendously.

Because you don't understand the awful implications of just "doing what you want" has on people. It makes justification of divorce and family turmoil much more easy. A true loving person makes sacrifices even at the expense of personal happiness. Even parents tell their own children life isn't always about having fun. Im sure you understand that?



So, you agree that a woman can go out, make $200K a year while dad stays at home and takes care of the kids? It sounds like you have absolutly no problem with feminism. And you must be careful what you say; yes, many women are abrasive, but no more than how many men are abrasive and even abrasive. If a man has an identity problem, its a personal problem rather than society's. If a man "doesn't know who he is" its not wise to blame this lack of identity on womens' equal rights movements. A man's identity has always been the same, only womens' role in society has been expanded. This is no way should take away from mens' social identity.

No im not, because 1. Its against the Gospel and 2. Its the husbands job to support and provide for his family. And yes, westerm women of today have become unnaturally abrasive because of our societys loss of chivalry and gender roles. Rather than being equal, women file divorces at a much more alarming rate than men do and this is because of the feminist proproganda that is defiling millions of western women of today. it teaches them to be selfish, abrasive, self centered and non family oriented. War was declared against the husband role and after Abortion was legalized it was then delcared on their own children. What effect do u think that will have on familys later on?


Children need to be taught about sex otherwise they become sexually repressed(imagine not knowing what sex is until you get married, as MANY men and women did in the early 1900's); it is of wide consensus from doctors, pediatricians, and child psychologists that sex needs to be openly discussed in an orderly, honest and safe enviornment. Trust me, sex-ed is not a bad things; this is why you should be able to duscuss sex with your children as soon as you can before the TV/the child's schoolyard friends do it for you......Also, children who are bullys can also get it FROM their dad, y'know? I knew plenty of bullys in school, and truth be told, most of them were from two-parent households. I don't think what you are saying has much validity in it. A bully can be a bully even if his parents are good parents. Again, the feminist movement isn't to blame for all these tangents you're bringing up.


Its really sad a professing christian is saying this, saying that young children need to be taught about sex. And then you wonder why teen STDs and pregnancys are so high. Schools telling women just to take contraception without even bringing up the emotional issues that sex before marriage has on childrens innocense and well being.


Trust me bro, men and women have always spoken harsh to each other if they felt a need to; just because we didn't see any of this behavior on "LEave it to Beaver" in the 50's doesn't mean this behavior didn't exist. You're sugesting that because women have equal rights, men have reacted violently towards women because of it? Dude, thats MEN'S problem! If we as men were REAL men, we wouldn't care what a woman does with HER life. A little boy would get upset when a woman takes his place ont he football/basketball team, but a real man would suck it up and say "y'know, maybe she did deserve it more than me, bc shes that good."


Im sorry but Im not gonna trust a person who says that a person of strong faith can leave his family. No true man of faith would leave his family. And your talking to me about who constitutes a real man?

And feminism is not about equal rights. Its about the deconstuction of moral values and family values, as well as Christianity and the ridding of God from familys.

It sounds like society has less of a problem with equal rights and more with little whiney boys crying because now they have more competition.

If only that was the case. But there are too many hurt familys and too steep of a rise of divorce to suggest that is it only that. Our country needs family stability and without that will only increase things like crime and other social problems in society.


It happens ALLLLL the time; people of strong faith will always find their faith shaken by ome life-changing event that takes a toll on any corner of one's life. Men of strong faith leave their families all the time.

Again if a man was of strong faith he would never leave his family because its against the gospel. How can a professing christian even say sucha thing. Have you even read Mark 10:11 and Matthew 5:32

but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery - Mark 10:11



No, its not. Being a dead-beat dad is never justifiable, and if people think that because women have equal rights to do what makes them happy and this justifies being a dead-beat dad, those people have sever psychological problems.

I think people who say men of strong faith leave their familys have problems. Do you realize the people you justify when you say something like that? Do you have problems with the Gospel?

Thats the thing; many women realize that they are already a self-sufficient unit on their own, and infact, many women realize they operate MORE EFFECIENTLY as a singular unit of their own. Many women are simply dragged down by marriage. ITs not their fault, marriage just simply doesn't work for them.


Well its sad you have such an unchristian view on marriage and family. It seems you have been already brainwashed by most feminist proproganda that marriage just "dumbs women down" etc. Marriage does not dumb people down, that is , unless they are weak and have no faith.

The feminism movement is a good thing; we have our roles in society.

Heres a good role; be the best person you can be and do what makes you happy.

Again a very selfish view on how to think of things. The "best person you can be" could be justified into millions of different things.

Thats about as simple of a role you can get that encompasses all degress of positivity.

I guess simple minds prefer simple things. But in reality most of us have to do things we don't always wanna do for the betterment of ourselves and others. As the bible says the heart is deceitfully wicked.

And I'm still having a problem with you suggesting that "doing what you want that makes you happy" is somehow comparable to homocide....I think thats simply a childish thing to retort with

Again you don't understand how reality works if you think its just " do what you want". And that can be applied to all things. If you use that for your standard of truth then I feel sorry for you.
 
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