The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

[Ed1wolf]

Yes morality would be objective yet not universally interpreted in the same way by all humans thus the subjectivity at the individual and group level. I am sure you see as I do the many different sects of Christianity where more than one Church claims to be the real Church in a crowed field where only one can be correct, if any.

No, churches that believe in the infallible authority of the bible generally agree on the essentials of Christianity.

 

[Ed1wolf]

You are not in a position to determine what has meaning to other people.

You are right, but God our creator is.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Give it a try. You say it's objective. Surely, you can take a stab at what the world would look like otherwise.

Ok, it would probably be what we would call anarchy. But it would not appear that way to them because they dont have an objective morality in order to see what anarchy is.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
That is a tough question to answer because since humans by nature were created to believe in objective morality. You would have to imagine humans with a different nature.

ken: What does this mean? Are you saying at birth (I’m assuming you were born; not created) you believed morality was objective? Or are you saying when Adam and Eve were created, they believed morality was objective (along with believing the world was flat and countless other things we know better now) so we inherit this ignorance; um I meant belief from them that morality is objective, or do you mean something else.

No, it is not a conscious belief, it is the fact that all humans are born with a moral conscience and therefore act and live as if there is an objective morality that their conscience is based on, even if they verbally deny its existence. It is subconscious. That is why most people get upset and angry if they see someone acting immorally and demand justice. Like this Seminole indian bomber that appears to be a Trump fan and why the media is covering it so closely, he has violated a moral standard against attempted murder.

ken: Also if we assume morality is objective; based on the revelations of Yahweh, if another believer asserted that Yahweh revealed to him that rape is good, what objective grounds do you stand on in claiming your revelation trumps his?

No, we know by reading and studying His objective written word that rape is wrong, so we know that anyone that claims that God says rape is good is lying.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
As I said earlier it cant be proven wrong, it is unfalsifiable.

ken: The fact that it can’t be proven wrong doesn’t make it unfalsifiable!

Yes it does, that is what unfalsifiable means and it is a sign that it is not scientific and not real science.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Also, because many people think it disproves God,

ken: Evolution disproves God? Are you kidding me??? Even the Pope believes in Evolution!
Pope Francis says evolution is real and God is no wizard

Have you ever heard Richard Dawkins speak? He definitely feels that way and all of his followers.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, you are misunderstanding, what I mean is that they think if evolution is true then there is no objective morality or God and they can do anything they want and not be held accountable for how they spend their time.

ken: Does the Pope believe in God? Does the pope believe morality is objective? Bruh; you obviously have no clue how those of us who believe in Evolution think, perhaps you should educate yourself in that area before speaking on our behalf

I am referring Darwinian evolution whose mechanism is natural selection, the Pope believes in supernatural selection and directed evolution. I am referring to those who believe in undirected evolution.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Straw man, creation does not deny that life changes over time due to its environment. It is obvious that life changes over time, the question is how much it changes.

ken: Evolution and Creation addresses two different claims; Creation is about how things began to exist, evolution is about what happens to things that already exist. Again; the Pope believes in both Creation AND Evolution; lots of people do!

No, creation also deals with what happens to things that already exist. Yes he believes in what is called theistic evolution which is guided and not directionless.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No that would be like admitting the universe is wrong. Theology is just like other sciences, we have the data, the Bible, and we have the interpretation of that data.

ken: You need to quit trying to change the subject and address the point I made. Again; The Bible makes claims, and I’ve never seen a Christian admit any of the claims of the Bible were wrong.

That is because they are Christians, orthodox Christians dont believe that the Bible can be wrong. But we do believe that our interpretations can be wrong and we always try to make sure that they are not and if they are then we usually correct them like we have done with slavery.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Energy is a quality of mass and mass is a quality of matter, so in order for energy to exist, matter and mass have to exist and in order for them to exist, space has to exist. Look it up.

ken: Are you going to answer the question I asked? Or are you going to keep answering questions I didn’t ask. Again; you made the claim that there was a time when space did not exist; so I asked "how are you defining SPACE"! Not energy, not matter, not mass; Space. Answer that question first, then we can move on to something else.

Space is where matter and energy resides.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Anyone who thinks that evolution disproves God doesn't know much about either.

Ever hear Richard Dawkins speak? Or his followers? Now remember I am referring to Darwinian evolution that is not directed and is generated thru Natural selection, not supernatural selection.

 

[Strathos]

Ever hear Richard Dawkins speak? Or his followers? Now remember I am referring to Darwinian evolution that is not directed and is generated thru Natural selection, not supernatural selection.

I hear that even among the general atheist community these days, Dawkins has accumulated a lot of negative karma.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes it does, that is what unfalsifiable means and it is a sign that it is not scientific and not real science.

No; unfalsifiable means a scenario cannot be presented where it is proven wrong. The fact that something is accurate does not make it unfalsifiable. Going by your logic, the fact that the law of gravity cannot be proven false means the law of gravity is unfalsifiable.

Have you ever heard Richard Dawkins speak? He definitely feels that way and all of his followers.

I’m not familiar with Richard Dawkins. Unless you share his views, I see no reason for you to bring him into this conversation.

I am referring Darwinian evolution whose mechanism is natural selection, the Pope believes in supernatural selection and directed evolution. I am referring to those who believe in undirected evolution.

You read the article; did the Pope say anything about supernatural selection and directed evolution? NO! You are just putting words in his mouth and accusing him of saying stuff he didn’t say

That is because they are Christians, orthodox Christians dont believe that the Bible can be wrong.

Only Orthodox Christians? Are you saying all the other Christians believe the bible could be wrong?

Space is where matter and energy resides.

Interesting. So what’s the difference between Space and Nothing?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Depending on if they both agree on the premises, and they use logically correctly, they can both reach the same conclusion. Usually they dont agree on the premises as I explained earlier.

ken: Two people can agree on the premises yet still disagree on the answer or solution.

Only if one of them does not use logic.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, it has nothing to do with logic, if they agree on the premises and use rules of logic then they will reach the same conclusion. This happens in science fairly often. The reasons they dont come to the same conclusion is the reasons I stated above and using incorrect rules of logic.

ken: Provide an example where to agree on the premises prevents you from logically disagreeing on the answer or solution

Determining the species of an animal and many other scientific conclusions.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
The verse was primarily referring to spiritual death, Adam and Eve died spiritually that day, and began dying physically that day also, it just took longer.

ken: It doesn’t say Spiritual death. However; if you gonna make that leap concerning Genesis 2:17 Then Romans 5:12 was about spiritual death also! IOW your argument fails. Care to try again? Where in the Bible does it say God intended for Adam and Eve to live forever, but not the animals?

Genesis has to be understood in the context of the whole bible. Paul talks about how sin brings spiritual death in Ephesians 2:1 and Romans 6 among other places. Adam and Eve sinned when they ate the fruit. Genesis 3:22 shows that the tree of life was going to let them live forever if they had not been thrown out of the Garden.

 

[Ken-1122]

Only if one of them does not use logic.


Determining the species of an animal and many other scientific conclusions.

If something objective like biology, or even math is being discussed, yeah they should reach the same conclusions. But if something subjective like right or wrong; both people can use logic yet still disagree; because logic is not a guarantee to the truth, it is just a tool used to form beliefs.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, words can be interpreted objectively. Such as "The sky is blue." Or "a bachelor is an unmarried man." Those are objectively true statements. The bible is pretty clear on most moral issues, though not all. So most of those moral laws can be objectively interpreted.

rob: So many different sects of Christianity and my observing Christians disagreeing (sometimes contentiously) does not support your claim.

No, if the denominations accept the infallible authority of the bible then they pretty much agree on the essentials of Christianity. The ones that dont accept that authority generally dont agree and are usually unorthodox.

 

[Ken-1122]

You are right, but God our creator is.

The only one around here I hear claiming someone's life doesn't have meaning is YOU! You aren't God are you.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, it is not a conscious belief, it is the fact that all humans are born with a moral conscience and therefore act and live as if there is an objective morality that their conscience is based on, even if they verbally deny its existence.

No; our moral conscious has us behaving as if there is a morality! Whether that morality is objective or subjective doesn’t matter, the behavior is the same.

No, we know by reading and studying His objective written word that rape is wrong, so we know that anyone that claims that God says rape is good is lying.

But the Bible doesn't say rape is wrong. Yeah you can conclude rape is wrong by reading certain verses, but one can also determine rape is good by reading certain verses; it all depends on where you choose to look. Again; what objective means do you have to determine your interpretation trumps his?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
The universe had to be the way it is in order to be a primarily natural law universe that could support free will human life.

ken: Where in the Bible does it say this? C'mon you just makin stuff up now aren't cha?

It is plainly implied. The bible teaches that the universe is primarily a natural law universe, besides Jeremiah 33:25, it also records things occurring over a period of 13.8 billion years and the number of miracles is very small compared to that time. It also teaches that we are free will beings. If you come up with a universe that has those things and is not like this one I am all ears.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
They did that in the Garden because it was a maintained temperature, but outside the Garden they would have worn clothes because the temperatures were cooler especially in winter.

ken: No; the bible says they saw themselves naked and covered themselves. And this was while they were still in the Garden. Care to make something else up?

Because they had sinned they became ashamed of their nakedness. Their guilty feelings made them cover their nakedness.

 

[Ken-1122]

It is plainly implied. The bible teaches that the universe is primarily a natural law universe,

Where in the Bible does it say it is a natural law universe?

besides Jeremiah 33:25, it also records things occurring over a period of 13.8 billion years and the number of miracles is very small compared to that time. It also teaches that we are free will beings. If you come up with a universe that has those things and is not like this one I am all ears.

I looked it up, and Jeremiah 33:25 says nothing about that.

Because they had sinned they became ashamed of their nakedness. Their guilty feelings made them cover their nakedness.

Oh! So you're changing it now? At first you said they wore clothes because they were cold when they left the Garden, now you seem to be agreeing with me now.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, we fought Japan for both reasons, and both are actions of evildoers, attacking us is evil too. We attacked Hitler because he was attacking Britain one of our closest allies and then when we found out about the Holocaust we had the Nuremburg trials to punish them as evildoers.

ken: We never fought Hitler till he declared war on us.

No, read about Winston Churchill, he convinced Roosevelt to get into the war in Europe because he understood Hitler and the Nazis better than anybody at the time.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Some white Christians did believe in equality for everyone but I am talking about the principles, only Christians had those principles, none of those ancient societies I mention had those principles. And they have never changed irrespective whether some Christians did not live by them but some Christians DID live by them. God's moral principles are unchanging.

ken: No; those principles were not about equality; they even enacted laws making it illegal to treat blacks the same as whites. Christianity has never cornered the market on morality

No, the Bible teaches that ALL races of humans descended from one pair of humans and ALL humans are created in the image of God and deserving of freedom and respect.
Read Genesis 1. No other religion except Judaism teaches these things. Those laws went against Christian teaching irrespective if so-called Christians enacted them. Christians and Christianity produced almost everything good about Western Civilization. Modern Science, modern hospitals, modern universities, modern orphanages, and etc. So yes Christianity actually has cornered the market on high morality. That does not mean individual Christians have not done bad things but that confirms Christian teaching that all humans are sinners even Christians.

 

[Ed1wolf]

You are not in a position to determine what has meaning to other people.

I am if there is evidence that there is an actual objective meaning for humans. And there is evidence that that meaning has been revealed by the Creator of humans in His written communication to us, the Bible. Just like if you give a iPhone to a Neanderthal, he might not know what it is for. you would have to explain to him the objective purpose of the iPhone.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Whether God exists or not, people will speak the same language and use the same words.

Maybe, but my point is that without the Christian God, language does not have objective meaning. You are just making noises to others and to your self in your brain to produce certain stimuli, you are not actually communicating objective knowledge.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, read about Winston Churchill, he convinced Roosevelt to get into the war in Europe because he understood Hitler and the Nazis better than anybody at the time.

Churchill was trying to get Roosevelt in the war, but Roosevelt never entered the war till Japan bombed us and Hitler declared war on us.

No, the Bible teaches that ALL races of humans descended from one pair of humans and ALL humans are created in the image of God and deserving of freedom and respect.

Not quite; the Bible does teach all humans defended from one pair of humans, but it does not teach that ALL humans are deserving of freedom and respect. Remember Christianity and the Bible was used to justify slavery in the USA.

Read Genesis 1. No other religion except Judaism teaches these things. Those laws went against Christian teaching irrespective if so-called Christians enacted them. Christians and Christianity produced almost everything good about Western Civilization.

Not quite; Christian people acting outside of Christianity produced almost everything good and everything bad about western civilization. Remember; those Christians went out of their way to make sure the Government was secular (separation of church and state). They could have made it a Christian nation, but they knew the problems that would have resulted had they done that.

Modern Science, modern hospitals, modern universities, modern orphanages, and etc. So yes Christianity actually has cornered the market on high morality. That does not mean individual Christians have not done bad things but that confirms Christian teaching that all humans are sinners even Christians.

Again; Christianity has no part in Modern Science, Universities, etc. because the people behind those things (even though some may be Christian) purposely kept their religious beliefs out.

 

[Ken-1122]

I am if there is evidence that there is an actual objective meaning for humans.

But there is not.

And there is evidence that that meaning has been revealed by the Creator of humans in His written communication to us, the Bible.

You have no evidence of the sort. All you have are a bunch of empty claims backed up by nothing outside of your word. And you have no proof that there is any merit to the claims of the Bible,

Maybe, but my point is that without the Christian God, language does not have objective meaning. You are just making noises to others and to your self in your brain to produce certain stimuli, you are not actually communicating objective knowledge.

You have no proof that this Christian God that you speak of is anything more than a figment of some very wild imaginations. If you want to believe all that stuff; that’s cool but don’t expect everyone else to.