The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

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Ken-1122

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Yes, but for awhile it was part of the theory but it had not been confirmed empirically, this is true of many theories and with evolution it is a major part of the theory. Macroevolution has never been empirically observed yet it is considered a major part of the theory.
Scientific theories don’t have to be observed.

Name a one time deep history event that has been PROVEN by science (the BB is probably the closest to have been proven by science but only because only in astronomy can we actually see history in real time), not hypothesized by science.
Dinosaures

Name the scientific evidence that proves the murder of Caesar.
Why would someone’s death that is on record need scientific backing?

What evidence points towards toys being made by Santa and his elves?
There is no evidence that will convince you, but the existence of toys is evidence to those who already believe.

How would I know it was you? It could be somebody you or a bot service paid to pretend to be you.
Once you meet me, you would know someone claiming to be me exist.

No, that is true only if the photo is of the actual criminal act. Just a picture of a man standing with a knife over a dead body would prove nothing about the man. He could either be a cop investigating the crime or he could be the murderer, there is no way you could know one way or the other without testimonial evidence.
If the man holding the knife in the picture were the one accused of murder, that would prove a lot more than hearsay
 
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Ken-1122

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You are not answering the question, would that PROVE I was a Buddhist?
To me it would. Obviously nothing would for you; but most reasonable people would at least consider you have no problem with Buddhism judging from the photo

No, the problem with atheism, Hitler's form of pantheism, and even Germany's liberal "Christianity" is that there is nothing that is objectively wrong, therefore it can become a slippery slope. That is what happened with Nazi Germany, they went down that slippery slope to the depths that such a view can lead to. Even though there can be very good moral atheist individuals, their philosophy can spin out of control when it is utilized as a nations philosophy because there is no objectively rational basis for morality. And such ideas can affect the way most people think especially when it is incorporated into the educational system.
What makes you think the people of Germany at that time believed morality was subjective rather than objective?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
No, but He is the Christian moral lawgiver.

ken: Are you sure about that? Name 1 law that Jesus actually gave.
Since He was God, the moral lawgiver of the universe, anything He taught and commanded morally are moral laws of the universe.

ken: How do you know he actually gave such a law? Did he write it down? No. Everything you believe about Jesus is based on what other people claimed he said. Jesus never wrote anything down. Various men claimed Jesus said this or that, but how do you know they weren’t lying? How do you know they weren’t making up their own laws and claiming they got them from Jesus? Lemme guess…. It’s all based on faith.
Yes, it is partially based on faith, but also since there is strong evidence that points to the gospels being written close to the place and time that He lived by people that knew Him personally. Also, there are independent extrabiblical sources that match many of the things written by the gospel writers confirming what they wrote.


Ed1wolf said:
Yes, secularists have caused some Christians to disobey Christ's teachings and in some rare cases secularists have helped them obey Christ's teachings. But mostly the Holy spirit has caused Christians to follow His teachings more and more as time has gone by especially since the Reformation when we returned back to accepting the Bible as our true authority for the teachings of Christ and stopped following a corrupt leadership during the middle ages.

ken: And still, what Christians claim is moral today is often different than what they claimed was moral years ago.

Yes, but the actual moral teachings of Christianity have never changed.

Ed1wolf said:
We can look on the toys and see who manufactured it, and we have never found a toy that said "manufactured by Santa". If there is no label on it, then we can do historical research and see who made certain toys and so far no one has ever discovered that Santa made a toy.

ken: Santa always puts Lego, Fisher-Price, Mattel, Tyco, and many other names on his toys.

No, because we trace those back to the actual manufacturers so we know that is not true. Try again.

Ed1wolf said:
You can have evil and immoral thoughts.

ken: Thoughts are neither good nor evil; they just are. The good and evil is determined by how we react to those thoughts.
If you have evil thoughts and agree with your own evil thoughts, that is immoral. Such as if you think about killing somebody and agree with yourself that you should kill that person and they are innocent of anything deserving of capital punishment then that is an evil reaction to those thoughts.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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True but using logic and reason you can eliminate and determine causes up to a pretty high probability.

You're not using login and reason. You're asserting that because you haven't seen evidence that there's a Santa that makes toys, that there is no Santa.

I have two words for you: Black swans.
 
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Ken-1122

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Since He was God, the moral lawgiver of the universe, anything He taught and commanded morally are moral laws of the universe.
How do you know Jesus was God? Remember, he never wrote anything down. the only thing you know about Jesus is what other people claimed he said and did. How do you know they weren’t lying?
Yes, it is partially based on faith, but also since there is strong evidence that points to the gospels being written close to the place and time that He lived by people that knew Him personally. Also, there are independent extrabiblical sources that match many of the things written by the gospel writers confirming what they wrote.
Again; how do you know the men who wrote the gospels weren't lying concerning many of their claims of Jesus?
Yes, but the actual moral teachings of Christianity have never changed.
A quick look at moral issues such as homosexuality, interracial relationships, women's rights (such as preaching) and others, you will see the moral teachings of many Christian churches and denominations are different today than they were 50 - 75 years ago.
No, because we trace those back to the actual manufacturers so we know that is not true. Try again.
I’m not saying all the toys with the labels of Mattel, fisher price, or Tyco are made by santa, just some of them. Have you traced every single toy with those labels back to the Manufacturer? No because if you did you would see some of them weren’t made by those companies, they were made by santa.
If you have evil thoughts and agree with your own evil thoughts, that is immoral.
Evil thoughts by whose standards? Mine? Yours? Someone else's?
Such as if you think about killing somebody and agree with yourself that you should kill that person and they are innocent of anything deserving of capital punishment then that is an evil reaction to those thoughts.
Who decides if they are innocent of anything deserving capital punishment? You? me? someone else?
 
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Ed1wolf

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The Big Bang model doesn't make predictions about deities. So any attempt to tie deities to it is an opinion outside the model, not inside the model.
Maybe not, but all you have to do is take one step in logic and it plainly points to a transcendent personal Cause.
 
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Ed1wolf

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You're not using login and reason. You're asserting that because you haven't seen evidence that there's a Santa that makes toys, that there is no Santa.
No, you misunderstood my argument. I didn't say that I could determine there is no Santa, only that I could determine that toys were not made by Santa.

tnt: I have two words for you: Black swans.
We know black swans exist. So your point is?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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No, you misunderstood my argument. I didn't say that I could determine there is no Santa, only that I could determine that toys were not made by Santa.

You can't determine no toys were ever made by Santa unless you can examine every toy ever made and somehow tell that Santa didn't make it. Which you can't.

We know black swans exist. So your point is?

We know they exist now. If you lived in Paris in say, 1600, you could have made the claim that black swans didn't exist because no black swans had ever been seen. Just like you're doing with Santa and toys. And you'd argument would be just as fallacious, because as I said before, absence of evidence isn't always evidence of absence.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Yes, but for awhile it was part of the theory but it had not been confirmed empirically, this is true of many theories and with evolution it is a major part of the theory. Macroevolution has never been empirically observed yet it is considered a major part of the theory.

ken: Scientific theories don’t have to be observed.
True but the more that aspects of the theory HAVE been empirically observed the stronger and more likely the theory is to be correct.

Ed1wolf said:
Name a one time deep history event that has been PROVEN by science (the BB is probably the closest to have been proven by science but only because only in astronomy can we actually see history in real time), not hypothesized by science.

ken: Dinosaures
The existence of dinosaurs was not a one time event. There were millions of dinosaurs and thousands became fossilized.


Ed1wolf said:
Name the scientific evidence that proves the murder of Caesar.

ken: Why would someone’s death that is on record need scientific backing?

A historical record of someone's death does not prove scientifically that it occurred.

Ed1wolf said:
What evidence points towards toys being made by Santa and his elves?

ken: There is no evidence that will convince you, but the existence of toys is evidence to those who already believe.

Well that doesn't do much good does it? The existence of toys just confirms that there is a toymaker but it doesn't prove that Santa did it.

Ed1wolf said:
How would I know it was you? It could be somebody you or a bot service paid to pretend to be you.

ken: Once you meet me, you would know someone claiming to be me exist.
Someone claiming to be you doesn't prove that it really is you. Again, you could have paid someone to pretend to be you.

Ed1wolf said:
No, that is true only if the photo is of the actual criminal act. Just a picture of a man standing with a knife over a dead body would prove nothing about the man. He could either be a cop investigating the crime or he could be the murderer, there is no way you could know one way or the other without testimonial evidence.

ken: If the man holding the knife in the picture were the one accused of murder, that would prove a lot more than hearsay
Ummm now you are contradicting yourself, accusations ARE testimonial evidence. But yes, combined with the photo it is strong evidence but that was my point. YOU are the one that wants me to believe that Hitler was devout Catholic ONLY based on pictures with no testimonial evidence. That would be a big mistake.
 
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Ken-1122

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True but the more that aspects of the theory HAVE been empirically observed the stronger and more likely the theory is to be correct.


The existence of dinosaurs was not a one time event. There were millions of dinosaurs and thousands became fossilized.
Yeah millions of dinosaurs, but they all happened around the same time period. Perhaps the reason there is no scientific evidence for what you are looking for is because whatever it is you are looking for has never happened.

A historical record of someone's death does not prove scientifically that it occurred.
So science has not studied the death of Caesar. What's your point?

Well that doesn't do much good does it? The existence of toys just confirms that there is a toymaker but it doesn't prove that Santa did it.
True. And the existence of the Universe just confirms the Universe exists! It doesn't prove God or anyone else created it!

Someone claiming to be you doesn't prove that it really is you. Again, you could have paid someone to pretend to be you.
True! I probably couldn't prove my existence to your satisfaction

Ummm now you are contradicting yourself, accusations ARE testimonial evidence. But yes, combined with the photo it is strong evidence but that was my point. YOU are the one that wants me to believe that Hitler was devout Catholic ONLY based on pictures with no testimonial evidence. That would be a big mistake.
I am the one providing the testimonial evidence! I made the claim, and I provided pictures to support my claim.
 
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Ed1wolf

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To me it would. Obviously nothing would for you; but most reasonable people would at least consider you have no problem with Buddhism judging from the photo
Maybe but it definitely would not prove that I was Buddhist, which is what you are trying to do with Hitler.


ken: What makes you think the people of Germany at that time believed morality was subjective rather than objective?
Because as I stated we know what most of their religious beliefs and philosophies were at the time.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Since He was God, the moral lawgiver of the universe, anything He taught and commanded morally are moral laws of the universe.

ken: How do you know Jesus was God? Remember, he never wrote anything down. the only thing you know about Jesus is what other people claimed he said and did. How do you know they weren’t lying?

First, ancient jews believed in moral absolutes, therefore it is unlikely they lied, also there are multiple independent sources for many facts about him. In addition, we have the gospels which were written when many of the people that knew him were still alive and so would have accused the writers of being liars. In addition, I have experienced a relationship with Him that has confirmed to me His claim that He is God.

Ed1wolf said:
Yes, it is partially based on faith, but also since there is strong evidence that points to the gospels being written close to the place and time that He lived by people that knew Him personally. Also, there are independent extrabiblical sources that match many of the things written by the gospel writers confirming what they wrote.
ken: Again; how do you know the men who wrote the gospels weren't lying concerning many of their claims of Jesus?
Again, see above. Though I have never claimed I could PROVE that they didn't lie. Though widespread fictional novels were not invented until the middle ages.

Ed1wolf said:
Yes, but the actual moral teachings of Christianity have never changed.

ken: A quick look at moral issues such as homosexuality, interracial relationships, women's rights (such as preaching) and others, you will see the moral teachings of many Christian churches and denominations are different today than they were 50 - 75 years ago.

Those are only interpretations of the moral teachings, the actual moral teachings have not changed on any of those issues. Though women preachers is not a moral issue but rather a church government issue.

Ed1wolf said:
No, because we trace those back to the actual manufacturers so we know that is not true. Try again.

ken: I’m not saying all the toys with the labels of Mattel, fisher price, or Tyco are made by santa, just some of them. Have you traced every single toy with those labels back to the Manufacturer? No because if you did you would see some of them weren’t made by those companies, they were made by santa.

No, but theoretically we could do so we could look at the characteristics of the toys and determine who made them and maybe where they were made.

Ed1wolf said:
If you have evil thoughts and agree with your own evil thoughts, that is immoral.

ken: Evil thoughts by whose standards? Mine? Yours? Someone else's?
Our Creator's standards.

Ed1wolf said:
Such as if you think about killing somebody and agree with yourself that you should kill that person and they are innocent of anything deserving of capital punishment then that is an evil reaction to those thoughts.

ken: Who decides if they are innocent of anything deserving capital punishment? You? me? someone else?
A judge and/or jury.
 
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Ed1wolf

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You can't determine no toys were ever made by Santa unless you can examine every toy ever made and somehow tell that Santa didn't make it. Which you can't.

Actually we could hire a toy expert and he could look at every toy that he has encountered so far and probably tell who made it and where it was made. And discover that none so far have been created by Santa. Again, I am not claiming that we could PROVE that Santa never made a toy but we could say with very high probability that he never did. That is all you can expect with almost every scientific theory. We can only get probabilities. Everything takes faith, even science.


tnt: We know they exist now. If you lived in Paris in say, 1600, you could have made the claim that black swans didn't exist because no black swans had ever been seen. Just like you're doing with Santa and toys. And you'd argument would be just as fallacious, because as I said before, absence of evidence isn't always evidence of absence.
Again see above. And given the characteristics of black swans and Santa, the probability that Santa made toys is much lower than that black swans exist even before they were discovered.
 
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Ken-1122

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First, ancient jews believed in moral absolutes, therefore it is unlikely they lied,
There are countless people today that believe in moral absolutes. That doesn’t mean they only tell the truth! You jokin’ right???

also there are multiple independent sources for many facts about him.
I challenge you to list a single credible non religious independent source that claims Jesus was God.

In addition, we have the gospels which were written when many of the people that knew him were still alive and so would have accused the writers of being liars.
These men who knew Jesus, have you read anything they wrote? If not, how do you know they didn’t accuse them of being liars?
 
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Ken-1122

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Those are only interpretations of the moral teachings, the actual moral teachings have not changed on any of those issues. Though women preachers is not a moral issue but rather a church government issue.
No; when a church leader teaches (for example) that Homosexuality is an abomination against God, he is making that is a moral issue

No, but theoretically we could do so we could look at the characteristics of the toys and determine who made them and maybe where they were made.
IN THEORY that could be done. But it never was, because if it were, they would see those that were made in the North Pole[/quote]
 
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Ken-1122

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Maybe but it definitely would not prove that I was Buddhist, which is what you are trying to do with Hitler.
I was just refuting YOUR claim that Hitler and the Nazi's rejected Christianity.

Because as I stated we know what most of their religious beliefs and philosophies were at the time.
But the subjective vs objective morality was not even a philosophical argument back then; so you have no way of knowing what they believed.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
True but the more that aspects of the theory HAVE been empirically observed the stronger and more likely the theory is to be correct.
The existence of dinosaurs was not a one time event. There were millions of dinosaurs and thousands became fossilized.

ken: Yeah millions of dinosaurs, but they all happened around the same time period. Perhaps the reason there is no scientific evidence for what you are looking for is because whatever it is you are looking for has never happened.

I would hardly call a period of 150 million years, the same time period! Maybe, but maybe not.

Ed1wolf said:
A historical record of someone's death does not prove scientifically that it occurred.

ken: So science has not studied the death of Caesar. What's your point?
My point is that generally science cannot prove one time past events. That is why we dont have scientific evidence for all the events in the bible.


Ed1wolf said:
Well that doesn't do much good does it? The existence of toys just confirms that there is a toymaker but it doesn't prove that Santa did it.

ken: True. And the existence of the Universe just confirms the Universe exists! It doesn't prove God or anyone else created it!

No, you failed the analogy. As I said that toys confirm that there is a toymaker, so the universe confirms there is a universe creator.

Ed1wolf said:
Someone claiming to be you doesn't prove that it really is you. Again, you could have paid someone to pretend to be you.

ken: True! I probably couldn't prove my existence to your satisfaction

So it is that I cannot prove God's existence to your satisfaction.

Ed1wolf said:
Ummm now you are contradicting yourself, accusations ARE testimonial evidence. But yes, combined with the photo it is strong evidence but that was my point. YOU are the one that wants me to believe that Hitler was devout Catholic ONLY based on pictures with no testimonial evidence. That would be a big mistake.

ken: I am the one providing the testimonial evidence! I made the claim, and I provided pictures to support my claim.

Well if that is true, you are older than I thought! So you are a WWII generation German who talked to Hitler about his religious beliefs? Testimonial evidence is only really valid if the person knew the person and/or saw the person doing things and heard them saying things. Like the eyewitness testimony I provided.
 
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Ken-1122

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I would hardly call a period of 150 million years, the same time period! Maybe, but maybe not.
Why?


My point is that generally science cannot prove one time past events. That is why we dont have scientific evidence for all the events in the bible.
If the entire Earth were at one time covered with water, how do you know science would not be able to see evidence of such an event?

No, you failed the analogy. As I said that toys confirm that there is a toymaker, so the universe confirms there is a universe creator.
How do you know the Universe was created?
 
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