The problem of evil

[Locutus]

Why do you think Carter, was the best president?

Okay, I'll qualify that. He's the best human being who happened to be President. May not equate to Perfect President.

We (in this country) look fondly upon the old peanut farmer. He aligns to our ideas about social democracy, I guess.

 

[Locutus]

What do you mean by a "better life"? Most people participating in churches seem to be happier, they have access to social support and a network of friends, at the very least. Let's not look at religious belief in the abstract here, and let's not generalize from your own experience on the matter.

The fact is, this thread, like many others, is degenerating into anti-religious soundbites that have been repeated for centuries, and are just as problematic today as they were centuries ago.

I imagine they are problematic today in a way they weren't centuries ago. After all, you could just kill us then. Now, well ... you not only can't kill us, but .... INTERNET!

The standard for human welfare is determined and agree upon by international bodies. It's not MY perspective, it's what most people agree is important. The most secular countries in the world are the top of the list.

 

[Locutus]

Is this why 9 million children die each year before the age of five, because they are wicked?

that's what made me feel ill. I literally despair for people forced into thinking this stuff to protect a (merely potential) flipping golden ticket.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Being harsh with people that have wronged you is not a wise thing to do because we are all ultimately sinners before God, we have all wronged God. That's what Jesus' parable of the unforgiving servant is about.

Not always. For example, say I was a victim of child rape (I wasn't, but pretend I was for the purposes of this discussion). I think I would have every right to be harsh with the person who assaulted me, and make sure they were punished within the full extent of the law. Likewise, I don't think forgiveness for someone who would do that is necessarily a good thing. I doubt very heavily that if I was in that position that I'd ever forgive, and I'd be ok with that.

That's an extreme example, I could also completely sympathize with a person who would never forgive a cheating spouse, or a negligent parent. Blanket forgiveness is not a good thing, however it would still be the right thing to do for the wrongdoers to own up to their mistakes and at least attempt to make things right.

As for your second part, I disagree we are all ultimately sinners before god, and we have wronged god... that kind of comes with the atheist territory That being said, I view that to be a very sad and depraved worldview. Most people are good people who try to live the best life they can. Are we perfect? No. Are we generally good? Yes.

Of course making amends to people you have wronged is generally a good idea. But demanding that they do so, is not in keeping with the grace that Christians have been given.

I think attempting to make amends is the only morally permissible action when you have wronged someone. Failure to do so is to abdicate responsibility for your actions.

 

[Dave Ellis]

What do you mean by a "better life"? Most people participating in churches seem to be happier, they have access to social support and a network of friends, at the very least. Let's not look at religious belief in the abstract here, and let's not generalize from your own experience on the matter.

The fact is, this thread, like many others, is degenerating into anti-religious soundbites that have been repeated for centuries, and are just as problematic today as they were centuries ago.

The reason why it's degenerating is because of red herring posts like that one.

At no point did anyone make any comment on happiness of people in churches, or programs that churches may offer. That's totally irrelevant to the discussion.

That being said, statistics do not correlate overall happiness with church attendance, so even if the post was relevant, it'd still be wrong.

 

[Dan Bert]

I am going to go into deeper water here. All matter come from the Light of God. When this cycle is over all matter return to that light. And the light is of and from God. When you touch a table..you are basically touching God. You do not experience God but God is experiencing you thru the table, the chair, the clothes that you wear the body that clothes your Spirit. God is aware of each one us on so many levels that it cannot be counted.

There is nothing in existence that is not of and from God. Your bodies obeys your brain, the elements themselves obeys God. The bible shows us that this is possible. Angels obey God they control the Universe through the power of faith. In Revelation you have this clue....

Revelation 7:1 - AND after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

You will more find more on how this works in the book of Enoch.

dan

How can you demonstrate; the world obeys perfectly, the will of God?

 

[Dan Bert]

Not always. For example, say I was a victim of child rape (I wasn't, but pretend I was for the purposes of this discussion). I think I would have every right to be harsh with the person who assaulted me, and make sure they were punished within the full extent of the law. Likewise, I don't think forgiveness for someone who would do that is necessarily a good thing. I doubt very heavily that if I was in that position that I'd ever forgive, and I'd be ok with that.

That's an extreme example, I could also completely sympathize with a person who would never forgive a cheating spouse, or a negligent parent. Blanket forgiveness is not a good thing, however it would still be the right thing to do for the wrongdoers to own up to their mistakes and at least attempt to make things right.

As for your second part, I disagree we are all ultimately sinners before god, and we have wronged god... that kind of comes with the atheist territory That being said, I view that to be a very sad and depraved worldview. Most people are good people who try to live the best life they can. Are we perfect? No. Are we generally good? Yes.


I think attempting to make amends is the only morally permissible action when you have wronged someone. Failure to do so is to abdicate responsibility for your actions.

This makes me feel ill.

Locutus...
The other side of the coin...God promised to add days to the righteous. The reason God shortens the days of wicked so that they do not receive torments beyond their capabilities to bear them when they die.

dan

 

[Dan Bert]

Children are holy and pure before the Lord. They are sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ until they are old enough to understand good and Evil and then chose evil for themselves. The reason some little children suffer in this fallen world and God permits it....is because of what they did before coming to this world. Just as our choices determine our fate in the next world ...the Children who are born into this world was determined what they did in heaven. There are no accidents, chances or luck of the draw. Where and who we are born to is determine by God based on Justice. The suffering of the innocent in this world is determine by God. What is important is the next life. Do not get confused and forget what is the goal. The Goal is not the wide and easy road which eventually lead to destruction. Those little children that die will rise to more Glory than most of us.
dan

Is this why 9 million children die each year before the age of five, because they are wicked?

 

[SkyWriting]

Is this why 9 million children die each year before the age of five, because they are wicked?

Did you want to drag out their suffering another 110 years?
Should we do that at your request?

 

[quatona]

Did you want to drag out their suffering another 110 years?

The answer "no", applied consistently, would mean even greater problems for your theology.

Should we do that at your request?

Could you guys do that?

 

[Picky Picky]

I speak mostly for the man kingdom...which the man is made in the image of God. For man suffering exist for two purposes to learn obedience and for purification. The suffering for purification has a beginning, a middle and a ending. Suffering because of sins, take us to grave before the initial appointed time. As it is written, God shall shorten the days of the wicked.

dan

Yes, you are wise, I think, to dodge the issue — although you could have saved yourself embarrassment by ducking out earlier. You are not alone is being unable to answer the question. Many quite unbelievable explanations are produced to try to deal with the problem of children's suffering, but no-one seems able to come up with even the most unlikely answer to the question "Why does God make animals suffer pain?"

 

[Resha Caner]

No, it's not my premise. It's the science. Bring your anthropology up to speed.

I've no problem accepting that some moral principles stem from issues of survival. However, I doubt anthropologists have much "science" to support such a position. And, if you're suggesting that all moral principles stem from issues of survival you are overreaching.

As a history student, I'm much relieved that the idea of history as a "science" is falling away. History utilizes the results of science in some places, but to call history a science is an abuse. Since it seems to me anthropology is just a combination of history, sociology, and archaeology it needs to incorporate some of the same cautions.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that the premise is not yours, but from certain anthropologists.

 

[bhsmte]

Did you want to drag out their suffering another 110 years?
Should we do that at your request?

Does length matter? These children suffered along with their famalies, that were likely praying for their loved on to be saved.

The poster in question stated people suffer because they are wicked, so i asked him if these 9 million children suffered because they are wicked.

 

[bhsmte]

I've no problem accepting that some moral principles stem from issues of survival. However, I doubt anthropologists have much "science" to support such a position. And, if you're suggesting that all moral principles stem from issues of survival you are overreaching.

As a history student, I'm much relieved that the idea of history as a "science" is falling away. History utilizes the results of science in some places, but to call history a science is an abuse. Since it seems to me anthropology is just a combination of history, sociology, and archaeology it needs to incorporate some of the same cautions.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that the premise is not yours, but from certain anthropologists.

What is you're evidence of where morality originates from?

 

[SkyWriting]

Does length matter? These children suffered along with their famalies, that were likely praying for their loved on to be saved.The poster in question stated people suffer because they are wicked, so i asked him if these 9 million children suffered because they are wicked.

Short suffering, long suffering for 110 years at your request.

I say that short suffering is better.
Yes, all suffering is a direct result of man turning from God.
But that gives us the choice to turn back. That's the downside
of having the option to trust God. Yes, the children suffer from
our decision to sin.

 

[bhsmte]

Children are holy and pure before the Lord. They are sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ until they are old enough to understand good and Evil and then chose evil for themselves. The reason some little children suffer in this fallen world and God permits it....is because of what they did before coming to this world. Just as our choices determine our fate in the next world ...the Children who are born into this world was determined what they did in heaven. There are no accidents, chances or luck of the draw. Where and who we are born to is determine by God based on Justice. The suffering of the innocent in this world is determine by God. What is important is the next life. Do not get confused and forget what is the goal. The Goal is not the wide and easy road which eventually lead to destruction. Those little children that die will rise to more Glory than most of us.
dan

What did these 9 million children who suffer and die before the age of five, do before they entered the world to deserve suffering?

 

[bhsmte]

Short suffering, long suffering for 110 years at your request.

I say that short suffering is better.
Yes, all suffering is a direct result of man turning from God.
But that gives us the choice to turn back. That's the downside
of having the option to trust God. Yes, the children suffer from
our decision to sin.

Didni miss something? When did i request long suffering?

So these children suffered and died because of the acts of others?

Morally bankrupt theology.

 

[Locutus]

I've no problem accepting that some moral principles stem from issues of survival. However, I doubt anthropologists have much "science" to support such a position. And, if you're suggesting that all moral principles stem from issues of survival you are overreaching.

As a history student, I'm much relieved that the idea of history as a "science" is falling away. History utilizes the results of science in some places, but to call history a science is an abuse. Since it seems to me anthropology is just a combination of history, sociology, and archaeology it needs to incorporate some of the same cautions.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that the premise is not yours, but from certain anthropologists.

Survival tactics evolved and enculturated. They become tradition, and sometimes ritual, long past their immediate utility. It's very basic social anthropology.

 

[Resha Caner]

What is you're evidence of where morality originates from?

I don't claim to know the origin of morality for all societies. Even in those cases where it seems apparent, the historical record serves as the data, but it is not always explicit evidence.

 

[Resha Caner]

Survival tactics evolved and enculturated. They become tradition, and sometimes ritual, long past their immediate utility. It's very basic social anthropology.

Every time someone insists something is very basic, I suspect that equates to an assumption or speculation rather than explicit evidence. Is that the case here?