The problem of evil

[Resha Caner]

If people who use the bible have varying morality, that tells me other factors are in play.

Possibly, yes.

 

[Loudmouth]

I did address it. But when you ignore my replies there is nothing more to say.

You avoid the argument by requesting citations.

Really? You have evidence that I was aware of the Egyptian source when I was learning the Golden Rule? Funny. The way I remember it, I didn't know of it at that time. When you only know of one source, I don't see how its arbitrary to follow it.

A simple google search would show that it isn't found just in the Bible. It would seem to be your responsibility to do some background research before claiming that it is only found in the Bible.

I'll agree to do that on 2 conditions. 1) That if we're going to use this example to judge Biblical morality, we judge it based on my interpretations.

If you have to use an arbitrary and personal interpretation that can never be questioned, then you have admitted from the get go that it isn't moral.

 

[Dan Bert]

Children who die because of suffering are not wicked. All children are holy and pure in the eyes of God. The suffering they endure is for what they did before coming to this world as Grown Spirits in heaven. There is justice, goodness and mercy from God. You do not have the whole story and make judgments based on what you know. It is God that decide how much each children is to suffer in this world not because of wickedness because of Purification. When they die these at judgment day will receive glory beyond most of us. Why do you think when Jesus was in this world...He did not feed all the starving children in the world? He could have you know, He had the power. Why do you think He did not heal all the people in the world of their diseases? He could have healed them, He also could have healed all the lepers in Israel. Why did He not do it? Because the Father has a plan for each and everyone of us. Jesus healed those whom the Father had prepared to be healed for His Glory.

None of us is given the mission of feeding every person in the world. Or to heal every person in the world. Those kids if they were fed would live to follow in the steps of their parents, and in turn would offend God and become sinners. That is not their fate they do not deserve to live and become sinners and die in their sins. God is in Charge and no one dies before God says yes. No one suffers before God says yes to it. No one lives to go to hell when they do not deserve it. Justice follows us in this world. Those of us who are born in Rich Orderly Nations it is because of our doings in heaven and this is justice just as justice of God will determine were we finally end up in heaven based on our choices we take in this world. We started in heaven on an equal footing, We did not do as well as everyone some are born crippled, some of us were born in Africa, some of us were born healthy to rich parents, or regular parents but Each one us was born from parents chosen by God in circumstances chosen by God, You should pity those born in Rich nations because most of them will abandon God for the things of this world and die in their sins. They have wasted their inheritance and at judgment day they will be separated from GOD forever.

Dan

Did you want to drag out their suffering another 110 years?
Should we do that at your request?

 

[Dan Bert]

We were born of heavenly parents. We grew up in heaven, some of us participated in the war on the side of good, some of us did nothing, neither choosing one side or the other side, and did nothing. Those that chose to follow Satan became devils and were cast out. The rest stayed in heaven until it was their time to be born in this world. Heaven is our starting place....that is why some say "returning home" when these become aware of their impending demise from this world. Why those words "Returning home?" because without knowing it ...these people were speaking the truth, those words came from the depth of their souls. Truth come to us more easily when we are about to die, the voices of the lusts of the flesh become silent one by one and then the still small voice is revealed to us. We started from heaven, came into this world to be tested outside the knowledge and glory of the Father so that we could prove ourselves to GOD. GOD already knew of what we were capable of or not. GOD gave us this school so we would know for ourselves that He is always right and all His commandment and judgment are just for all Eternity. Those who became prophets and holy men in this world was not by chance, or by luck. It was because of their Duty, Valor and Zeal for GOD in heaven. We are born with those qualities or lack of, that we possessed in heaven before coming to this School. Here we are given another chance to change things in us that will advance us in heaven or even lose the little we had. The parable of the Talent is for us. Some come into this world with one, some with two ...it is what we do with those things that determine the kind of servants we are. The stories of the bible are our life stories.

Dan

What did these 9 million children who suffer and die before the age of five, do before they entered the world to deserve suffering?

 

[FireDragon76]

What you failed to mention is that the people suffering from these diseases are asking doctors to kill them. These aren't death penalties. These are requests for euthanasia by the people who would be euthanized.

Euthanasia erodes respect for life and the concept of equality of all people, because it says that its OK to murder certain types of people, the suicidal, the disabled, the terminally ill.

I'm a disabled American and always have been uncomfortable about the message that euthanasia sends about human worth. Compassion is often the gloss for indifference to having to care for other people whose vocation is to endure suffering. It really ties back to a derth of spirituality in our culture, which in turn feeds narcissim and nihilism.

 

[Loudmouth]

Euthanasia erodes respect for life and the concept of equality of all people, because it says that its OK to murder certain types of people, the suicidal, the disabled, the terminally ill.

Most people define murder as killing someone who doesn't want to die. All you are doing is falsely redefining euthanasia as murder.

What you need to consider is that people have the right to decide how they live their lives, including how their life ends.

I'm a disabled American and always have been uncomfortable about the message that euthanasia sends about human worth.

What message does it send when the government is given control over a person's life instead of that person deciding for themselves how to live their life?

 

[bhsmte]

We were born of heavenly parents. We grew up in heaven, some of us participated in the war on the side of good, some of us did nothing, neither choosing one side or the other side, and did nothing. Those that chose to follow Satan became devils and were cast out. The rest stayed in heaven until it was their time to be born in this world. Heaven is our starting place....that is why some say "returning home" when these become aware of their impending demise from this world. Why those words "Returning home?" because without knowing it ...these people were speaking the truth, those words came from the depth of their souls. Truth come to us more easily when we are about to die, the voices of the lusts of the flesh become silent one by one and then the still small voice is revealed to us. We started from heaven, came into this world to be tested outside the knowledge and glory of the Father so that we could prove ourselves to GOD. GOD already knew of what we were capable of or not. GOD gave us this school so we would know for ourselves that He is always right and all His commandment and judgment are just for all Eternity. Those who became prophets and holy men in this world was not by chance, or by luck. It was because of their Duty, Valor and Zeal for GOD in heaven. We are born with those qualities or lack of, that we possessed in heaven before coming to this School. Here we are given another chance to change things in us that will advance us in heaven or even lose the little we had. The parable of the Talent is for us. Some come into this world with one, some with two ...it is what we do with those things that determine the kind of servants we are. The stories of the bible are our life stories.

Dan

And you know all this, how exactly?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Locutus...
The other side of the coin...God promised to add days to the righteous. The reason God shortens the days of wicked so that they do not receive torments beyond their capabilities to bear them when they die.

dan

Say what?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Did you want to drag out their suffering another 110 years?
Should we do that at your request?

No, I'd rather those kids have a good, healthy and long life.

However your god apparently thinks it's ok if they have a rough ride, provided they die young? What an absolutely bizarre argument....

 

[FireDragon76]

What message does it send when the government is given control over a person's life instead of that person deciding for themselves how to live their life?

The government tells people what to do all the time, especially if what people are doing is harmful. People are not autonomous individuals in reality and their behavior has consequences for others. We depend on other people for our basic survival, especially in advanced and developed countries, so it makes sense to consider the consequences of our actions on others even if we feel free to do whatever we want with our own lives.

 

[Loudmouth]

The government tells people what to do all the time, especially if what people are doing is harmful. People are not autonomous individuals in reality and their behavior has consequences for others. We depend on other people for our basic survival, especially in advanced and developed countries, so it makes sense to consider the consequences of our actions on others even if we feel free to do whatever we want with our own lives.

Is it moral to use the power of government to tell people which god they can or can not believe in? Is it moral to put people in jail for what they say?

Is it moral just because the government says so?

 

[Resha Caner]

A simple google search would show that it isn't found just in the Bible. It would seem to be your responsibility to do some background research before claiming that it is only found in the Bible.

Google didn't exist when I first learned the Golden Rule. I'm not sure I could even read at the time. And I never said it was only found in the Bible. In fact, just prior to entering this thread I started another thread that discussed the fact that many Christian morals are not unique to Christianity. I can cite it if you would like ...

If you have to use an arbitrary and personal interpretation that can never be questioned, then you have admitted from the get go that it isn't moral.

So that's a no? You won't defend your system using this example even though you're allowed the same opportunity to offer your interpretation?

I will clarify a bit what I meant. We would each be allowed an introduction that contains 2 things: The first would be our synopsis of the Amalekite story. For example, in my synopsis I must be allowed that God exists and intended to bring his will to fulfillment through Israel, that Saul was a weak, greedy, and disobedient king, and that the Amalekites had a long history of preying on Israel. The second would be a statement on morality - in my case a statement of what I interpret as the basis for God's actions.

For your part, you can state God doesn't exist and the Bible is only a book written by men ... or whatever you prefer to say.

I understand your concern, but you did say we should all judge for ourselves. That's why I'm proposing two parallel evaluations. One using your judgement and one using mine. I'm not going to propose that you must allow a situation where God can do anything and everything, thinks whatever I think whenever I think it, and that this must be accepted as "good".

 

[Loudmouth]

Google didn't exist when I first learned the Golden Rule.

It does now. Do you know how to use google?

I'm not sure I could even read at the time. And I never said it was only found in the Bible. In fact, just prior to entering this thread I started another thread that discussed the fact that many Christian morals are not unique to Christianity. I can cite it if you would like ...

If you had actually done the research required to determine which morals are unique, you would already know that the Golden Rule is found in other religions and religious texts.

So that's a no? You won't defend your system using this example even though you're allowed the same opportunity to offer your interpretation?

You said that I wasn't allowed to use my interpretation.

"I'll agree to do that on 2 conditions. 1) That if we're going to use this example to judge Biblical morality, we judge it based on my interpretations."--Resha Caner

Sorry, but I am not going to play the game of "I will only discuss this if you agree ahead of time that I am right".

I will clarify a bit what I meant. We would each be allowed an introduction that contains 2 things: The first would be our synopsis of the Amalekite story. For example, in my synopsis I must be allowed that God exists and intended to bring his will to fulfillment through Israel, that Saul was a weak, greedy, and disobedient king, and that the Amalekites had a long history of preying on Israel. The second would be a statement on morality - in my case a statement of what I interpret as the basis for God's actions.

How does that make the slaughter of babies into a moral act?

 

[FireDragon76]

Is it moral to use the power of government to tell people which god they can or can not believe in? Is it moral to put people in jail for what they say?

Is it moral just because the government says so?

Where did you get that based on what I said? I said there's consequences to our actions: a culture of death that accepts death as a cure for illness and disability.

 

[bhsmte]

Where did you get that based on what I said? I said there's consequences to our actions: a culture of death that accepts death as a cure for illness and disability.

And what if an illness that produces immense suffering can not be cured?

 

[Nym]

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

I grant that I could be wrong, that somehow there is a God in charge of it all and its just like the Christian God and is beyond my understanding. But it would be pretty cruel for such a being to hold honest doubts against me, given the quality of evidence he's left.

And honestly, if it is the case that God exists and he has such a mysterious plan, what does that say about Christian epistemology? How could we take any religious authority seriously if God's will is so inscrutable? It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.

Isn't God in the end just a word?

 

[Loudmouth]

Where did you get that based on what I said?

I stated that people have the right to live their lives as they see fit, and you tried to argue against that.

I said there's consequences to our actions: a culture of death that accepts death as a cure for illness and disability.

You are once again misrepresenting reality. Allowing people to commit euthanasia if they so choose is not accepting a culture of death. To use another example, you can allow people the right to worship idols if they so choose. That doesn't mean that the culture at large are idol worshippers.

 

[Resha Caner]

If you had actually done the research required to determine which morals are unique, you would already know that the Golden Rule is found in other religions and religious texts.

The point of offering the citation was to show I've known that for quite some time. You don't seem to be listening.

Here is what I said on 5 May:

Interesting. Most of the unbelievers I speak to claim Christianity doesn't have any unique moral principles.

You said that I wasn't allowed to use my interpretation.

I didn't intend that, which is why I clarified. The #1 & #2 were meant to be two separate cases. We would run two cases in parallel - one using my interpretation and one using yours ... interpretation of the story - I already gave a preview of what mine would look like for the first case. I'm offering to submit myself to your interpretation for the second case. And you're right, it can't smell of "agree with me before this even starts". If you can't work within those parameters, then yeah, it's not a good idea to proceed.

 

[SkyWriting]

No, I'd rather those kids have a good, healthy and long life.

Oh we'd all like to have Heavenly health coverage. No sickness, no disease, no cancer.
You only get that in Heaven. That's what those children have now.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Oh we'd all like to have Heavenly health coverage. No sickness, no disease, no cancer.
You only get that in Heaven. That's what those children have now.

So, why not just give that to them to begin with, rather than having them endure a tortured and miserable experience on earth first?

That doesn't sound like a very moral setup.