The problem of evil

[Chriliman]

We've been through this before:

1) God has a good reason for permitting evil
2) There is a divine intervention; God undoes all evil.

Clearly you don't accept these lines of reasoning as sufficient. I do.

Interesting. Do you believe everyone will be saved? Just varying degrees of firey refinement in the ages to come that will ultimately lead to full restoration of creation? The logic of a loving God seems to point to this. Thoughts?

 

[Achilles6129]

Interesting. Do you believe everyone will be saved? Just varying degrees of firey refinement in the ages to come that will ultimately lead to full restoration of creation? The logic of a loving God seems to point to this. Thoughts?

No, I think that universalism goes against Scripture.

 

[Locutus]

Yes, that's what makes the will free, otherwise free will has no meaning. Sin can be defined as opposition to the will of God.

How do you do B if the plan was for you to do A? Do you thwart the god?

 

[Locutus]

Yes, there are no perfect, pat answers to the problem of evil. This universe, man and beast and the elements, are radically free to operate as they will, within only whatever physical constraints exist for them. Only man has the power to constrain himself in the moral sphere. We're the hands of god here; we play god-or the devil-or something inbetween.

'radically free' but destined to do what the god planned we'd do. interesting.

 

[Locutus]

It just means that we all have limitations-and there's nothing here on earth that prevents us from doing as we will within those limitations. If I want to kill someone I'm completely free to try-I may or may not be stopped by, for example, the desire of some other being opposing my action. If I want to lift a two ton boulder I'll be constrained by my physical abilities. Animals likewise do as they will. Earthquakes, tornadoes, disease-all freely operating-and perhaps destroying- as nature proceeds along its path. We can call these acts of God or the will of God but we recognize in them that the universe is what it is-regardless of our preferences in the matter.

If it's the 'will of god', then you are not free. not at all.

 

[Locutus]

yes there is freedom in heaven, without freedom goodness and love is not possible. there is not evil in heaven because to be evil is hell.

that bolded makes no sense, and gives no information. please explain how there is no evil in heaven.

 

[Locutus]

It may well be impossible for God to create a world with free creatures without the possibility of evil. God's omnipotence doesn't apply to anything that's outside of his nature.
.

You do know that OMNIPOTENCE means there isn't anything 'outside his nature', right? If you think there is, please let us know what the all powerful god is thwarted by!

 

[Locutus]

The point that you're not addressing is that for many people, myself included, it's not possible to see your god as loving at all. i find it the heights of insanity to believe in a god that on the one hand can help someone find their car keys, and on the other fails to prevent a child from being molested and murdered. Especially since that god could have created a universe in which people never choose to molest and murder children...

A few days ago, a Christian friend told me god had helped her secure her dream home. Others had made offers on the house and been accepted, but had a family emergency and were unable to proceed. My friend was effectively saying that god had caused a problem in the lives of the other party, so she could have house A instead of having to buy house B - which had one less bathroom and was therefore inadequate. She said this, sitting in the lounge room of the dream home, on her new sofa. The TV was on, and in another act of god, an ad about the plight of starving African children aired. I kid you not.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'm sure you and I can agree that there are forces at work in our universe that neither of us fully understand.

You realize this doesn't address anything I wrote, right?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

We've been through this before:

1) God has a good reason for permitting evil
2) There is a divine intervention; God undoes all evil.

Clearly you don't accept these lines of reasoning as sufficient. I do.

Your belief in number 1 seems to go against everything human beings understand about morality. Unnecessary suffering is bad. An omnipotent god can prevent unnecessary suffering. Therefore, an omnipotent god desires human suffering more than its abolishment. Applying the term "good" to such a being stretches the definition beyond the breaking point.

Number 2 is equally a mess. You can't "undo" suffering, even for an omnipotent god. It exists as it's happening. Any action after the fact is immaterial to the suffering that occurs, as it's happening.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We've been through this before:

1) God has a good reason for permitting evil
2) There is a divine intervention; God undoes all evil.

Clearly you don't accept these lines of reasoning as sufficient. I do.

Yes, we have been through this before. See my comment above.

 

[Chriliman]

No, I think that universalism goes against Scripture.

If God undoes all evil wouldn't that be like evil never happened? It seems more accurate to say that God stops evil and destroys it.

 

[Chriliman]

Your belief in number 1 seems to go against everything human beings understand about morality. Unnecessary suffering is bad. An omnipotent god can prevent unnecessary suffering. Therefore, an omnipotent god desires human suffering more than its abolishment. Applying the term "good" to such a being stretches the definition beyond the breaking point.

How can anyone know there is unnecessary suffering? What if all suffering is necessary for varying reasons only known to God?

It could be that God suffers the most in order to achieve His will of giving life to His creation.

Number 2 is equally a mess. You can't "undo" suffering, even for an omnipotent god. It exists as it's happening. Any action after the fact is immaterial to the suffering that occurs, as it's happening.

I agree with this. I don't think God undoes or reverses suffering, I think even He suffered so that all might have life to the fullest and free from suffering. This reality that is free from suffering is yet to be realized by us, but God is making it a reality that we can experience, if we trust in Him.

 

[Chriliman]

A few days ago, a Christian friend told me god had helped her secure her dream home. Others had made offers on the house and been accepted, but had a family emergency and were unable to proceed. My friend was effectively saying that god had caused a problem in the lives of the other party, so she could have house A instead of having to buy house B - which had one less bathroom and was therefore inadequate. She said this, sitting in the lounge room of the dream home, on her new sofa. The TV was on, and in another act of god, an ad about the plight of starving African children aired. I kid you not.

God blesses those He loves so they can bless other's in need, not so they can hoard their blessings for themselves. I'll refrain from judging your Christian friend because I don't know her, but it could be that she is actually blessing others in other ways other than with her financial wealth.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'm sure you and I can agree that there are forces at work in our universe that neither of us fully understand.

Ah, the traditional fall-back position, GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways).

 

[Oafman]

Ah, the traditional fall-back position, GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways).

A bit of God of the Gaps in there too. If we were playing religious argument bingo, that could have been a decisive moment.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

God blesses those He loves so they can bless other's in need, not so they can hoard their blessings for themselves. I'll refrain from judging your Christian friend because I don't know her, but it could be that she is actually blessing others in other ways other than with her financial wealth.

Ouch! That's scarily close to the 'trickle-down economics' argument...

 

[Chriliman]

Ouch! That's scarily close to the 'trickle-down economics' argument...

From what I've heard, Sanders has some interesting ideas. Whether a candidate is democrat or republican or independent doesn't matter to me, if I see Christ like qualities in them then I'll be interested to hear more about what they have to say.

 

[Locutus]

God blesses those He loves so they can bless other's in need, not so they can hoard their blessings for themselves. I'll refrain from judging your Christian friend because I don't know her, but it could be that she is actually blessing others in other ways other than with her financial wealth.

So he doesn't love skeletal, dying innocent children, suffering incredible pain and torment from birth? But he does love old, fat, wealthy, racist bigots who indulge the vanity that the creator of the universe is prepared to cause another family pain so that she might have an extra bathroom?

Please let me know if I have that right

 

[Chriliman]

So he doesn't love skeletal, dying innocent children, suffering incredible pain and torment from birth? But he does love old, fat, wealthy, racist bigots who indulge the vanity that the creator of the universe is prepared to cause another family pain so that she might have an extra bathroom?

Please let me know if I have that right

In the case of your friend, I already said I don't know her and therefore I won't judge her. As for the suffering children, I know of some that I've helped to eleviate their suffering I hope others help as well, that's all I can say with certainty.