The problem of evil

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That last answer is just lame. Why not create a world without the possibility of evil? Is that impossible? Then how can God be omnipotent?

If God's only motive for not stopping evil is the elect, then he's not omnibenevolent. He loves some, and not others.

Let me make clear, I'm not an atheist (but neither do I claim to be an orthodox Christian). However, I believe most traditional Christian explanations for evil are inadequate and childish.

The need to believe is a powerful thing - it's remarkable how tenaciously people cling to beliefs they feel some benefit from, regardless of the dilemmas, paradoxes, and contradictions they may entail, and despite the lack of evidence for them. We are an extraordinary species...

 

[Achilles6129]

That last answer is just lame. Why not create a world without the possibility of evil? Is that impossible? Then how can God be omnipotent?

It may well be impossible for God to create a world with free creatures without the possibility of evil. God's omnipotence doesn't apply to anything that's outside of his nature.

If God's only motive for not stopping evil is the elect, then he's not omnibenevolent. He loves some, and not others.

Not at all. God eventually does stop all evil. All evil gets undone. God just simply waits awhile because if he intervenes too soon he'll somehow destroy the elect. See the parable of the tares and the wheat.

I think that the only way the problem of evil works is if there's no divine intervention. But there is a divine intervention: there's just a delay before it happens.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It may well be impossible for God to create a world with free creatures without the possibility of evil. God's omnipotence doesn't apply to anything that's outside of his nature.



Not at all. God eventually does stop all evil. All evil gets undone. God just simply waits awhile because if he intervenes too soon he'll somehow destroy the elect. See the parable of the tares and the wheat.

I think that the only way the problem of evil works is if there's no divine intervention. But there is a divine intervention: there's just a delay before it happens.

So God eventually stops free will?

 

[Achilles6129]

So God eventually stops free will?

I would say so, in a sense. In short, everyone's nature is changed so that they naturally obey God's commands. I think that free will is overrated; it's the nature that's really important.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I would say so, in a sense. In short, everyone's nature is changed so that they naturally obey God's commands.

Couldn't he have created individuals who are naturally inclined to obey his commands?

I think that free will is overrated; it's the nature that's really important.

So why create free will in the first place?!

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The problem of evil is only a problem if you think people are good and deserve life; it is no problem if you believe men are all sinners who deserve death. Ever since Adam and Eve sinned we have all been living by the grace of God, because in His Holy justice He could have ended us right there.

Jesus Himself was not exempt from suffering the pains of this world, yet you think you should be? We are called to have faith in Him despite our suffering, and an eternal reward will be waiting for us at Christ's return.

Consider the story of Job, a man whom God Himself declared was righteous (by grace through faith), and yet God allowed satan to ruin his entire life. Job felt compelled to question God and in the end God questioned Him with this: "Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2). Job was not God in that he could not understand His perfect plan. In the end God blessed Job double what he had been blessed before.

 

[FireDragon76]

Couldn't he have created individuals who are naturally inclined to obey his commands?

So why create free will in the first place?!

The whole fall-sin-death-redemption story is a drama designed to appeal to non-rational minds.

And yes, I believe every human being deserves better. That doesn't make me monster for recognizing my own dignity or the dignity of others. I think any truly conscientious person believes that. And my question is, where is the Creator in all this mess? Not to be found in the lame apologetics of classical theism.

 

[Loudmouth]

It may well be impossible for God to create a world with free creatures without the possibility of evil.

Then what is Heaven?

 

[Achilles6129]

Then what is Heaven?

The creatures in heaven have already made their choice regarding obeying/disobeying God's commands.

 

[Achilles6129]

Couldn't he have created individuals who are naturally inclined to obey his commands?

Then they wouldn't have free will.

So why create free will in the first place?!

I was referring to something else.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Then they wouldn't have free will.

Why is that problematic when, according to you, he will eventually abolish it anyway? When asked about why God doesn't intervene to stop evil, you say that he cannot because he respects our freedom to act. But even human beings recognise that sometimes it is necessary to curb someone's freedom if it stops them from committing a heinous act. If someone were being physically assaulted, we would not respect the freedom of the assailant to assault them; we would intervene, and rightly so. But Yahweh cannot because, according to you, he respects the freedom of the assailant more than the wellbeing of the victim.

 

[Loudmouth]

The creatures in heaven have already made their choice regarding obeying/disobeying God's commands.

They don't have the free will to change their mind? Are they incapable of sinning in heaven?

 

[Achilles6129]

They don't have the free will to change their mind? Are they incapable of sinning in heaven?

In heaven everyone has already made their choice and the nature has been irrevocably changed. When we talk about good and evil we're really talking about the nature, not free will.

 

[Loudmouth]

In heaven everyone has already made their choice and the nature has been irrevocably changed.

So they have no free will?

When we talk about good and evil we're really talking about the nature, not free will.

So why couldn't God have created this world with the same nature as Heaven?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Then they wouldn't have free will.

Demonstrably false.

 

[zippy2006]

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

If there were no evil then Christianity would be flat false.

 

[Chriliman]

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

I grant that I could be wrong, that somehow there is a God in charge of it all and its just like the Christian God and is beyond my understanding. But it would be pretty cruel for such a being to hold honest doubts against me, given the quality of evidence he's left.

And honestly, if it is the case that God exists and he has such a mysterious plan, what does that say about Christian epistemology? How could we take any religious authority seriously if God's will is so inscrutable? It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.

It wouldn't make much sense for a loving God to be unwilling to answer the many questions of the curious beings that He created. I think He enjoys answering our questions and giving us wisdom, He also enjoys it when we solve problems on our own after we've gained wisdom from Him. It's when we're in serious trouble that He'll always be there waiting for us to ask Him for help again or for the first time. When you start viewing God as a loving creator who enjoys helping His creation overcome that which displeases Him, you begin to see the true beauty that eternal life has to offer.

From God's perspective, life is flourishing as originally intended, the problem of evil is being overcome because He continues to give knowledge and wisdom that helps His creation overcome their personal individual evil desires. God is actively creating new beings who are becoming more and more like Him and capable of bringing His heavenly Kingdom to earth.

If you're not for His Kingdom and His way, then He'll continue to lovingly show you why His way is better than your way. Over time He'll even let you hit rock bottom so you realize He is the rock at the bottom and He'll lift you back up again when you acknowledge that His way is the truth and the life. This is how a loving God works in invisible ways in our lives, it's too personal to see from the outside looking in, you have to experience it yourself to know.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

When you start viewing God as a loving creator...

The point that you're not addressing is that for many people, myself included, it's not possible to see your god as loving at all. i find it the heights of insanity to believe in a god that on the one hand can help someone find their car keys, and on the other fails to prevent a child from being molested and murdered. Especially since that god could have created a universe in which people never choose to molest and murder children...

 

[Chriliman]

The point that you're not addressing is that for many people, myself included, it's not possible to see your god as loving at all. i find it the heights of insanity to believe in a god that on the one hand can help someone find their car keys, and on the other fails to prevent a child from being molested and murdered. Especially since that god could have created a universe in which people never choose to molest and murder children...

I'm sure you and I can agree that there are forces at work in our universe that neither of us fully understand.

 

[Achilles6129]

The point that you're not addressing is that for many people, myself included, it's not possible to see your god as loving at all. i find it the heights of insanity to believe in a god that on the one hand can help someone find their car keys, and on the other fails to prevent a child from being molested and murdered. Especially since that god could have created a universe in which people never choose to molest and murder children...

We've been through this before:

1) God has a good reason for permitting evil
2) There is a divine intervention; God undoes all evil.

Clearly you don't accept these lines of reasoning as sufficient. I do.