The problem of evil

[bhsmte]

2 Timothy 3:16 ESV

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

LOL

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You do realize, non believers don't put much credibility in scripture?

Furthermore, proselytizing is against the stated statement of purpose of the Philosophy board.

 

[Chany]

Furthermore, proselytizing is against the stated statement of purpose of the Philosophy board.

To be fair, most of these discussions go against the statement of purpose.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Are you implying that being a Christian means you can't believe in goodness and love?

I think the scriptures confuse those subjects and make it harder for people than they really are, I think we are better at loving and being good without the scriptures. I think the scriptures cause good people to do bad things and make good people go to great lengths to be good inspite of the scriptures teachings.

 

[FireDragon76]

Is that the Bible's fault, or the fault of human beings that interpret it? Maybe the only kind of Christianity you are familiar with is the toxic kind that asks people to choose between their internal conscience and some external standard, usually based in some religious authority? I don't think that attitude is universal to Christians, in fact I'd say its the minority viewpoint and a misreading of the tradition.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Is that the Bible's fault, or the fault of human beings that interpret it? Maybe the only kind of Christianity you are familiar with is the toxic kind that asks people to choose between their internal conscience and some external standard, usually based in some religious authority? I don't think that attitude is universal to Christians, in fact I'd say its the minority viewpoint and a misreading of the tradition.

The scriptures repeatedly provide that we not lean on our own understanding, that our understanding leads to death and that we take up our cross and those who seek to save their own lives will then lose their lives and that our hearts are wicked even beyond our worst dreams. The bible is is full of stories of the very worst things happening to the people we love the very most if we do not surrender to god.

I think good people who are Christians do manage to keep being good and true to their selves, but that it is very confusing and dissonant. I don't think most Christians lose their innate human goodness, but that it makes it harder and makes it confusing and sometimes causes them to have a sort of apathy about the topic when it comes to dialogue. I do think that in the end they will do what THEY believe is right and they will just figure out a way to act like that's what the bible actually meant to do. Because they need to.

 

[amariselle]

The scriptures repeatedly provide that we not lean on our own understanding, that our understanding leads to death and that we take up our cross and those who seek to save their own lives will then lose their lives and that our hearts are wicked even beyond our worst dreams. The bible is is full of stories of the very worst things happening to the people we love the very most if we do not surrender to god.

I think good people who are Christians do manage to keep being good and true to their selves, but that it is very confusing and dissonant. I don't think most Christians lose their innate human goodness, but that it makes it harder and makes it confusing and sometimes causes them to have a sort of apathy about the topic when it comes to dialogue. I do think that in the end they will do what THEY believe is right and they will just figure out a way to act like that's what the bible actually meant to do. Because they need to.

Where does our "innate human goodness" come from?

 

[Hikarifuru]

Where does our "innate human goodness" come from?

It comes from us, that's why it's innate human goodness. It's the evolutionary need to survive, reproduce, protect our offspring and try to be happy.

Don't hurt me, Don't rape me, Don't steal my food, Don't hurt my children, I need to reproduce... these are very basic human needs that humans and organisms have all by their selves. But humans have always wondered were we came from and they don't know a way to prove that their own happiness is more important than another beings happiness, so they need to invoke a creator with moral authority in order to put those questions to rest and give them peace during their confusion.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Where does our "innate human goodness" come from?

Nature, nurture, logic...

 

[amariselle]

Nature, nurture, logic...

So, we "create" goodness for ourselves? Goodness is not an objective standard? If that is the case, then why does "goodness" need to be the same for everyone? We should all just be able to do what feels right to us personally, because after all, if goodness is just a result of nature, nurture and logic, there is nothing objectively true about what makes anything good (or bad).

 

[Hikarifuru]

So, we "create" goodness for ourselves? Goodness is not an objective standard? If that is the case, then why does "goodness" need to be the same for everyone? We should all just be able to do what feels right to us personally, because after all, if goodness is just a result of nature, nurture and logic, there is nothing objectively true about what makes anything good (or bad).

Goodness IS subjective, it's not the same for everyone and we did create it... that this doesn't make everyone happy in the end and that it requires some self confidence and self love rather than having an authority figure to believe in doesn't change that this is what it is. Humans struggle through life and die, this world isn't perfect and not everyone can be happy but that doesn't change that our desire for goodness came from us. Your questions and your confusion are just questions and confusion.

 

[amariselle]

It comes from us, that's why it's innate human goodness. It's the evolutionary need to survive, reproduce, protect our offspring and try to be happy.

Something that just "comes from us" is therefore entirely subjective, not objective. In that case, what is "good" to you may not be "good" to me. And yet, this subjective explanation of "innate goodness" falls far short of what we see in the world around us, in the lives of people from all different cultures and backgrounds. Rather than goodness being subjective, it is objective. There are things pretty much all of us agree are good or bad despite differing personalities, experiences, upbringing etc.

And contrary to this "innate goodness" only being about happiness and survival, many of the things we consider most good and honorable actually involve great self-sacrifice, not simply chasing after our own wants and desires.

Don't hurt me, Don't rape me, Don't steal my food, Don't hurt my children, I need to reproduce... these are very basic human needs that humans and organisms have all by their selves. But humans have always wondered were we came from and they don't know a way to prove that their own happiness is more important than another beings happiness, so they need to invoke a creator with moral authority in order to put those questions to rest and give them peace during their confusion.

This is an overly simplistic view. In times of confusion people often blame God and get angry with Him (sometimes even those who say they don't believe in God do this). God is often accused and railed against by people in their darkest times. It seems in this way hurting and angry people wish He didn't exist. They definitely have almost no desire to "create" God in these times. People are far more likely to acknowledge and praise God in the good times, not the bad.

The idea that God was created by mankind simply falls far short of adequately explaining the history of human spirituality.

 

[amariselle]

Goodness IS subjective, it's not the same for everyone and we did create it... that this doesn't make everyone happy in the end and that it requires some self confidence and self love rather than having an authority figure to believe in doesn't change that this is what it is. Humans struggle through life and die, this world isn't perfect and not everyone can be happy but that doesn't change that our desire for goodness came from us. Your questions and your confusion are just questions and confusion.

Oh, I'm not confused, not in the slightest. I know what "innate goodness" is, and where it comes from, and we did not create it.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Something that just "comes from us" is therefore entirely subjective, not objective. In that case, what is "good" to you may not be "good" to me. And yet, this subjective explanation of "innate goodness" falls far short of what we see in the world around us, in the lives of people from all different cultures and backgrounds. Rather than goodness being subjective, it is objective. There are things pretty much all of us agree are good or bad despite differing personalities, experiences, upbringing etc.

And contrary to this "innate goodness" only being about happiness and survival, many of the things we consider most good and honorable actually involve great self-sacrifice, not simply chasing after our own wants and desires.


This is an overly simplistic view. In times of confusion people often blame God and get angry with Him (sometimes even those who say they don't believe in God do this). God is often accused and railed against by people in their darkest times. It seems in this way hurting and angry people wish He didn't exist. They definitely have almost no desire to "create" God in these times. People are far more likely to acknowledge and praise God in the good times, not the bad.

The idea that God was created by mankind simply falls far short of adequately explaining the history of human spirituality.

I already said goodness is subjective. That most humans agree on a lot of things doesn't make those things objective, we all get hungry... that doesn't mean eating food is objectively good when it's just something we simply want to do and humans have not proven morality to be objective, that's why we kill each other and we groan in great agony over it, forever.

We do sometimes sacrifice ourselves, but we sacrifice ourselves for something else that we want and need, like taking care of our loved ones because that too is one of our needs. Or to feel good about selves.

That religious gods inherently confuse the matter, does not make my position overly simple.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Oh, I'm not confused, not in the slightest. I know what "innate goodness" is, and where it comes from, and we did not create it.

No you don't know and yes you are confused... your explanation being "God" a god that only exists in your dialogue that repeatedly requires "faith", a faith that tells you to never ever lean on your own understanding but to give your heart and will to him... proves that.

 

[amariselle]

I already said goodness is subjective. That most humans agree on a lot of things doesn't make those things objective, we all get hungry... that doesn't eating food is objectively good when it's just something we simply want to do and humans have not proven it to be objective, that's why we kill each other and we groan in great agony over it, forever.

Wait? The need to eat is not objective? Seriously? Then why can't someone just decide subjectively that they don't want to eat anymore and be done with that? The need to eat is quite objective and real, and it HAS been proven. If we don't eat, we die. It doesn't get more objective and more proven than that.

We do sometimes sacrifice ourselves, but we sacrifice ourselves for something else that we want and need, like taking care of our loved ones because that too is one of our needs. Or to feel good about selves.

We do not do certain self-sacrificing things just to feel good about ourselves. Often we are faced with a decision and we know that the right and good thing to do is the far less pleasant thing. Such decisions cost us something and we know it's right, even though the other option would have felt much better.

That religious gods inherently confuse the matter, does not make my position overly simple.

Quite the opposite. A good, and intelligent God in Whose image we are created, clarifies everything. He is the standard for true goodness.

 

[amariselle]

No you don't know and yes you are confused... your explanation being "God" a god that only exists in your dialogue that repeatedly requires "faith", a faith that tells you to never ever lean on your own understanding but to give your heart and will to him... proves that.

Fortunately, you do not know me, and you have absolutely NO authority in regards to my life and my intelligence to say whether I am confused or not. You have proven nothing in your false characterization of me. Although, I suppose it allows to to just dismiss my points without any consideration. Whatever works for you I guess.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Wait? The need to eat is not objective? Seriously? Then why can't someone just decide subjectively that they don't want to eat anymore and be done with that? The need to eat is quite objective and real, and it HAS been proven. If we don't eat, we die. It doesn't get more objective and more proven than that.



We do not do certain self-sacrificing things just to feel good about ourselves. Often we are faced with a decision and we know that the right and good thing to do is the far less pleasant thing. Such decisions cost us something and we know it's right, even though the other option would have felt much better.



Quite the opposite. A good, and intelligent God in Whose image we are created, clarifies everything. He is the standard for true goodness.

The need to eat is objective, but that it's good to eat is a subjective point of view, that everyone needs to eat or gets hungry doesn't change that it's only your desire to eat. It's just your desire. That doesn't make morality objective. Humans having needs don't make morality objective, just really really commonly agreed on, but it's still just people with opinions and desires.

Yes we do sacrifice ourselves to feel good about ourselves. Feeling like we are innocent, honorable, good is very beneficial to our mental stability and sense of self, we don't like feeling like we are bad. People do things in repayment of others, they ask forgiveness, they seek to make amends when the only real change is that we want to be forgiven, we want to feel good about ourselves again. People serve needy people because taking care of other people also benefits us and it GREATLY boosts of own sense of self goodness and helps us feel happier with ourselves.

God clarifies nothing, this is why religion does not work without great faith and it requires much commentary and much prayer and meditation for it to work and this is why the Christian only sections of this forum are completely full of confused people who do not know how to solve their problems or make their beliefs make sense and want advice from others. This god is not the perfect face of goodness and for meeting our needs, this is why the bible foretells that very few of us will survive his return.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Fortunately, you do not know me, and you have absolutely NO authority in regards to my life and my intelligence to say whether I am confused or not. You have proven nothing in your false characterization of me. Although, I suppose it allows to to just dismiss my points without any consideration. Whatever works for you I guess.

You have demonstrated that you are a Christian and I know a lot about Christians, you also elaborated on your beliefs for me a few times already. I do know enough about you to make very simple statements like I did.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

So, we "create" goodness for ourselves?

Goodness isn't a thing, so we don't create it. We define what goodness is.

Goodness is not an objective standard?

Not in my opinion. There are non theists that take this position, but I'm not one of them.

If that is the case, then why does "goodness" need to be the same for everyone?

I would say the vast majority of people don't have the exact same definition of "good". Most people have intersubjective morality, such that we agree about many things. Which, again, come from nature, nurture and logic.

We should all just be able to do what feels right to us personally, because after all, if goodness is just a result of nature, nurture and logic, there is nothing objectively true about what makes anything good (or bad).

I don't know about you, but included in my nature is empathy, which means I don't have any desire to cause suffering to other people. Of course, with the number theists saying that without a god people should do whatever they want no matter what, I'm beginning to think that none of you have any empathy...