The problem of evil

[FireDragon76]

What happened in the space of 38 pages...?

I never said I was an atheist back then... just going through a difficult time in my spiritual life where I was not sure what to believe.

 

[SteveB28]

I never said I was an atheist back then... just going through a difficult time in my spiritual life where I was not sure what to believe.

Nor did I suggest you were an atheist. But you seemed quite content, as I am, to doubt and to find fault with religious claims. Now, you would prefer that people who express those doubts and criticisms should refrain?

Your 'faith' wavered temporarily? Well, ours wavers a little more continuously. Not a big difference....

 

[SteveB28]

And I would suggest that the logic expressed in your comments on page 1, just a few weeks ago, are no less cogent now...........

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think truth is about logic, at least not the central truths of the Christian faith.

I guess it is a bit of a startling change, reading some of the things I posted before. I went from a place of ambiguity to a lot more confidence. I suppose throughout my doubts I still continued to believe, though it felt like I was not seeing God clearly anymore, I still continued to hope and to keep seeking. I had sins in my life, resentments, and I didn't appreciate the good things God has given me like I should have. I became too wrapped up in the ways of the world and started to judge things according to those values rather than according to Christian ones.

I am still critical of religion. There are sometimes some bad ideas of God floating out there, and very shallow theology. Some Christians are steeped in a harsh religious mindset and that can create problems because so much of our culture has been shaped by it. But that is not a mindset that is necessarily intrinsic to being a Christian.

 

[SteveB28]

I don't think truth is about logic, at least not the central truths of the Christian faith.

On this, we are in complete agreement!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I really should have started this thread in general apologetics. But for some reason I cannot post there. I really was looking for answers from other Christians, not atheists. I am very familiar with atheist arguments on this issue. This thread has become a megaphone for atheists to ridicule Christian faith. Please, I don't go to atheist forums and rant about the evils of atheism (what a waste of my time that would be)... why do those hostile to Christianity come here? To gawp at us like animals in a zoo?

I don't mind atheists posting to this forum in a respectful manner the rules of the forum should be kept in mind:

Who is belittling or mocking Christians? You asked earlier how Christianity could lead to nihilism. I gave you an answer. What part of that answer constituted "belittling or mocking"? Others have asked you for evidence supporting your claims. What part of that is "belittling or mocking"?

This thread, and numerous others here, have had too many instances of belittling of the Christian faith. Our faith has been compared to a crumbling edifice designed to manipulate our humanity towards nefarious ends.

How does that constitute mockery? I do think it's a crumbling edifice on the verge of a devastating collapse. I do think that some Christians would be inclined to nihilism because they have anchored all their values to that edifice. Should I not talk about it, even though you specifically asked about it?

If this is to be a philosophy forum, it must be the honest pursuit of truth (that's what philosophy is after all, the love of wisdom), and not merely a place to voice ignorant, bigoted opinions of the Christian faith.

What aspect of what I have said about the Christian faith is ignorant or bigoted?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I rest my case.

My comments were not necessarily an attack on atheists for lacking adherence to a creed or religion. They were criticisms of the general human tendency to reject the good gifts of God in favor of false idols of their own fashion. That is what I mean by rejecting God's grace.

You've created your own idols though. Now perhaps you can understand why Nietzsche's Twilight of the Idols was subtitled "How to philosophise with a hammer."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You have no right to assert, without evidence, that I am a misanthrope, merely because I take an orthodox Christian position on human depravity. ... So please, stop with the bigotry.

I didn't make such a charge, so I'm not prepared to defend it, except to say that your views do seem to border on misantrophic, and it's not "bigotry" to point that out. Without your theological lens, you would view human beings with utter disdain. They are monsters in your view, wholly incapable of loving except by means of supernatural intervention. How is that not bordering on the misantrophic?

If this is to be a philosophy forum, it must be the honest pursuit of truth (that's what philosophy is after all, the love of wisdom), and not merely a place to voice ignorant, bigoted opinions of the Christian faith.

Oh please... if this is to be a philosophy forum, then your whining about how offended you are by our assessment of your religion should count for nothing.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't think truth is about logic, at least not the central truths of the Christian faith.

I guess it is a bit of a startling change, reading some of the things I posted before. I went from a place of ambiguity to a lot more confidence. I suppose throughout my doubts I still continued to believe, though it felt like I was not seeing God clearly anymore, I still continued to hope and to keep seeking. I had sins in my life, resentments, and I didn't appreciate the good things God has given me like I should have. I became too wrapped up in the ways of the world and started to judge things according to those values rather than according to Christian ones.

What values specifically?

I am still critical of religion. There are sometimes some bad ideas of God floating out there, and very shallow theology.

To quote Nietzsche, since he has come up quite often in recent discussions, "Mystical explanations are thought to be deep; the truth is that they are not even shallow."

 

[FireDragon76]

I do think it's a crumbling edifice on the verge of a devastating collapse.

Nietzsche seems to be referring to what we call Christendom, not Christianity. If that is so, then perhaps he was correct.

My faith is not in Christendom, but in Christ.

I do think that some Christians would be inclined to nihilism because they have anchored all their values to that edifice.

Some Christians being the operative word. Historical peace churches and Anabaptists have been dealing with the world's rejection for centuries.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Nietzsche seems to be referring to what we call Christendom, not Christianity. If that is so, then perhaps he was correct.

My faith is not in Christendom, but in Christ.

No, he is referring to Christianity. However, he could be interpreted as referring more broadly to all the Abrahamic religions and any religion that falls prey to "Plato's error." Given the time and context in which he was writing, however, it made the most sense to focus on Christianity specifically.

Some Christians being the operative word.

You yourself being one example, given what we've gleaned from your posts so far.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

I don't think truth is about logic, at least not the central truths of the Christian faith.

I guess it is a bit of a startling change, reading some of the things I posted before. I went from a place of ambiguity to a lot more confidence. I suppose throughout my doubts I still continued to believe, though it felt like I was not seeing God clearly anymore, I still continued to hope and to keep seeking. I had sins in my life, resentments, and I didn't appreciate the good things God has given me like I should have. I became too wrapped up in the ways of the world and started to judge things according to those values rather than according to Christian ones.

I am still critical of religion. There are sometimes some bad ideas of God floating out there, and very shallow theology. Some Christians are steeped in a harsh religious mindset and that can create problems because so much of our culture has been shaped by it. But that is not a mindset that is necessarily intrinsic to being a Christian.

That place of ambiguity and doubt is the only way to truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

They are monsters in your view, wholly incapable of loving except by means of supernatural intervention. How is that not bordering on the misantrophic?

I suppose it is paradoxical. Human beings are created in the divine image, an image which is unfortunately damaged by sin. As a result of sin, human beings have capacities for horrible evil, but they are also loved by God, and he has not abandoned the human race to our depravity. All those things create a complex ethic that cannot be simply affirmed as "misanthropy".

I do not blame you for not understanding this, some of these things are only clearly exposed through divine revelation. The effects of sin blind us. So perhaps to you, the doctrines make no sense and sounds ugly. Many medicinal drugs are not pleasant to take either. But the goal is a good one, to restore our health.

 

[FireDragon76]

What values specifically?

Consumerism and materialism being the main ones. It is hard to escape from it. And there are lots of psychological tricks that corporations use to manipulate us to make us unhappy, to want things we really do not need, that have consequences far beyond just spending money.

I find going to church, as big a hassle as it is, centers my life, and it is worth my time after all. The relative nonjudgementalism, egalitarianism, and lack of cynicism I find at most churches is a refreshing change from a status-obsessed culture which is quick to make evaluations of human worth.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I suppose it is paradoxical. Human beings are created in the divine image, an image which is unfortunately damaged by sin. As a result of sin, human beings have capacities for horrible evil, but they are also loved by God, and he has not abandoned the human race to our depravity. All those things create a complex ethic that cannot be simply affirmed as "misanthropy".

I do not blame you for not understanding this, some of these things are only clearly exposed through divine revelation. The effects of sin blind us. So perhaps to you, the doctrines make no sense and sounds ugly. Many medicinal drugs are not pleasant to take either. But the goal is a good one, to restore our health.

A problem arises when one takes medicinal drugs for an illness one does not have. Have you considered that perhaps it does not make sense, not because of sin, but because the doctrines themselves are dubious?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Consumerism and materialism being the main one. It is hard to escape from it. And there are lots of psychological tricks that corporations use to manipulate us to make us unhappy, to want things we really do not need.

I find going to church, as big a hassle as it is, centers my life, and it is worth my time after all. The relative nonjudgementalism, egalitarianism, and forgiving attitude I find at most churches is a refreshing change from a status-obsessed culture which is quick to make evaluations of human worth.

Evaluations of human worth? Like concluding that humanity is depraved and only capable of loving by means of supernatural intervention? Those sort of evaluations?

 

[FireDragon76]

Evaluations of human worth? Like concluding that humanity is depraved and only capable of loving by means of supernatural intervention? Those sort of evaluations?

To use Aristotilian categories, sin is an accident to human nature. It's like a poison, and corrupts all our actions. Other Christian churches have similar evaluations of the human condition, for now I've used the Lutheran one. In that evaluation, human beings are still retain the divine image, which is good, though it is damaged and unrecognizeable. They are still capable of being redeemed and they still have value in God's eyes.

I don't see that as misanthropic. I see it as realistic. Truly misanthropic would be to say that there is nothing worth caring about in my fellow human being. I never said that.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't see that as misanthropic. I see it as realistic.

You don't see calling ordinary people monsters as misanthropic? There's a mighty fine line between that and misanthropy if there is one.

Truly misanthropic would be to say that there is nothing worth caring about in my fellow human being. I never said that.

That's good. Maybe you avoid pure misanthropy with that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

To use Aristotilian categories, sin is an accident to human nature. It's like a poison, and corrupts all our actions. Other Christian churches have similar evaluations of the human condition, for now I've used the Lutheran one. In that evaluation, human beings are still retain the divine image, which is good, though it is damaged and unrecognizeable. They are still capable of being redeemed and they still have value in God's eyes.

I don't see that as misanthropic. I see it as realistic. Truly misanthropic would be to say that there is nothing worth caring about in my fellow human being. I never said that.

You are one step away from saying exactly that! To you, human beings are worth caring about because they retain the divine image, not because they are human beings. Without it, they would be depraved, in your mind, and hardly worth caring about. Can you see how that borders on misantrophic? Can you see how you are one short step away from nihilism?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

By the way, @FireDragon76, you never clarified what "bigotry" against the Christian faith we are guilty of, despite making that accusation in passing.