The problem of evil

[Eudaimonist]

That makes no sense.

It does if you are trained in doublethink.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[FireDragon76]

That makes no sense.

I don't expect you to understand. It's difficult for me to put in words, even. At best, the words point to a reality, but they are not identical to the reality. To know God, you have to deny what you know and be willing to enter into unknowing. That place is the only place where the Holy Spirit can truly speak to us.

How do you distinguish works of love done by human beings from "works of love that he works in our lives through us"?

I don't. God gives common grace to everyone as he wills. I see no contradiction. As Jesus says, the Father causes the sun to rise and the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't expect you to understand. It's difficult for me to put in words, even. At best, the words point to a reality, but they are not identical to the reality. To know God, you have to deny what you know and be willing to enter into unknowing.

You do realise that what you said was contradictory?

God gives common grace to everyone as he wills. I see no contradiction. As Jesus says, the Father causes the sun to rise and the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

That doesn't answer my question. It seems to me that you have no way of distinguishing works of love done by human beings from "works of love that he works in our lives through us." Given that human beings seem capable of loving on their own, why credit this love to some supernatural being?

 

[FireDragon76]

You do realise that what you said was contradictory?

Only if you assume Aristotilian logic is the final word on truth. I see it as more a paradox.

That doesn't answer my question. It seems to me that you have no way of distinguishing works of love done by human beings from "works of love that he works in our lives through us." Given that human beings seem capable of loving on their own, why credit this love to some supernatural being?

God illuminates those works and lifts them up into the sacramental mystery of his own Trinitarian life.

I disagree with your views of human autonomy. We would not even draw breath without the providential love of God for his creation.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God illuminates those works and lifts them up into the sacramental mystery of his own Trinitarian life.

You asked before about how Christianity could lead to nihilism. This is how, FireDragon76. You take something that is good in human beings - their ability to love - and you steal it and hide in the vault of your theology. What happens to love when that vault is destroyed? The very ability to love is destroyed with it, along with everything else you've hidden in there.

 

[FireDragon76]

You asked before about how Christianity could lead to nihilism. This is how, FireDragon76. You take something that is good in human beings - their ability to love - and you steal it and hide in the vault of your theology. What happens to love when that vault is destroyed? The very ability to love is destroyed with it, along with everything else you've hidden in there.

All I know, is that I'm a sinner in a sinful world. I don't have this ability to love and hope to extraordinary lengths that you seem to think is natural.

I was not raised in a particularly religious home. We hardly ever prayed. Unlike the atheist stereotypes of Christians, I don't believe I was "brainwashed" into faith. It's something I had to struggle with. I have been dealt a heavy hand of suffering. Faith for me is not an ideology that I wish to steal away anything that was already there. It's more like a fountain that fills an absence in me.

God, by his grace, makes me a better person than I could ever be on my own, by rescuing me from the false gods of this world.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

All I know, is that I'm a sinner in a sinful world. I don't have this ability to love and hope to extraordinary lengths that you seem to think is natural.

Yes you do. That's part of what it means to be human. And yet you've taken it and locked it away in some theological box. You've given credit to someone else - credit that is not due to them - for one of humanity's most remarkable traits. Now, according to you, we can't even love without that love being credited to some supernatural agency.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes you do. That's part of what it means to be human. .

Your view of human nature is presumptuous and naïve. There are monsters in this world. If not for God, I would be one of them. I can feel the allure of evil every day.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Your view of human nature is presumptuous and naïve. There are monsters in this world. If not for God, I would be one of them. I can feel the allure of evil every day.

My view is naive? Why don't you lock those "monsters" in your theological vault along with love?

 

[FireDragon76]

My view is naive? Why don't you lock those "monsters" in your theological vault along with love?

Monsters are the natural consequence of rejecting God's grace.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Monsters are the natural consequence of rejecting God's grace.

Why wouldn't it be the other way around? Why not put the monsters in the theological box and allow humans to love naturally (as they do anyway)? You're selecting all the things you like about humanity and ripping them from it to place in your theological vault, while leaving behind all the things you don't like. When your vault is destroyed, that's all you're going to be left with.

 

[bhsmte]

Monsters are the natural consequence of rejecting God's grace.

This is a claim.

Now, support it with evidence.

 

[FireDragon76]

This is a claim.

Now, support it with evidence.

The saints are my evidence.

Why wouldn't it be the other way around? Why not put the monsters in the theological box and allow humans to love naturally (as they do anyway)? You're selecting all the things you like about humanity and ripping them from it to place in your theological vault, while leaving behind all the things you don't like. When your vault is destroyed, that's all you're going to be left with.

What makes you think the "vault" will be destroyed? Do you have some satanic plan to rid the world of the Church of God? The Church has endured for 2,000 years, I see no reason why it won't endure for 2,000 more.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What makes you think the "vault" will be destroyed? Do you have some satanic plan to rid the world of the Church of God? The Church has endured for 2,000 years, I see no reason why it won't endure for 2,000 more.

Because the vault has already crumbled, though many have yet to realise it and some pretend otherwise.

 

[bhsmte]

The saints are my evidence.


What makes you think the "vault" will be destroyed? Do you have some satanic plan to rid the world of the Church of God? The Church has endured for 2,000 years, I see no reason why it won't endure for 2,000 more.

The saint's are your evidence?

You expect anyone to take this seriously?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Monsters are the natural consequence of rejecting God's grace.

Wow, what misanthropy!

In my experience, people who "reject God's grace" are not significantly more likely to be monsters on average than are Christians who arguably have accepted God's grace.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[FireDragon76]

I really should have started this thread in general apologetics. But for some reason I cannot post there. I really was looking for answers from other Christians, not atheists. I am very familiar with atheist arguments on this issue. This thread has become a megaphone for atheists to ridicule Christian faith. Please, I don't go to atheist forums and rant about the evils of atheism (what a waste of my time that would be)... why do those hostile to Christianity come here? To gawp at us like animals in a zoo?

I don't mind atheists posting to this forum in a respectful manner the rules of the forum should be kept in mind:

All discussions with the intent of belittling or mocking Christians or Christianity will be promptly removed.

This thread, and numerous others here, have had too many instances of belittling of the Christian faith. Our faith has been compared to a crumbling edifice designed to manipulate our humanity towards nefarious ends. An image that in my mind conjure up the ghosts of the regimes of Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin, not Sunday morning at a mainline church where the most offensive thing is probably the green jello or the coffee.

You have no right to assert, without evidence, that I am a misanthrope, merely because I take an orthodox Christian position on human depravity. Lots of other Christians have done so as well, such as the late theologian and pastor Reinhold Niebhur, who made and make significant contributions in the US in the area of social justice (hardly typical for a misanthrope to care about such things). So please, stop with the bigotry.

If this is to be a philosophy forum, it must be the honest pursuit of truth (that's what philosophy is after all, the love of wisdom), and not merely a place to voice ignorant, bigoted opinions of the Christian faith.

 

[SteveB28]

Wow, what misanthropy!

In my experience, people who "reject God's grace" are not significantly more likely to be monsters on average than are Christians who arguably have accepted God's grace.


eudaimonia,

Mark

And, the evidence would suggest, perhaps less likely.

 

[FireDragon76]

And, the evidence would suggest, perhaps less likely.

I rest my case.

My comments were not necessarily an attack on atheists for lacking adherence to a creed or religion. They were criticisms of the general human tendency to reject the good gifts of God in favor of false idols of their own fashion. That is what I mean by rejecting God's grace.

 

[SteveB28]

I really should have started this thread in general apologetics. But for some reason I cannot post there. I really was looking for answers from other Christians, not atheists. I am very familiar with atheist arguments on this issue. This thread has become a megaphone for atheists to ridicule Christian faith. Please, I don't go to atheist forums and rant about the evils of atheism (what a waste of my time that would be)... why do those hostile to Christianity come here? To gawp at us like animals in a zoo?

I don't mind atheists posting to this forum in a respectful manner the rules of the forum should be kept in mind:



This thread, and numerous others here, have had too many instances of belittling of the Christian faith. Our faith has been compared to a crumbling edifice designed to manipulate our humanity towards nefarious ends. An image that in my mind conjure up the ghosts of the regimes of Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin, not Sunday morning at a mainline church where the most offensive thing is probably the green jello or the coffee.

You have no right to assert, without evidence, that I am a misanthrope, merely because I take an orthodox Christian position on human depravity. Lots of other Christians have done so as well, such as the late theologian and pastor Reinhold Niebhur, who made and make significant contributions in the US in the area of social justice (hardly typical for a misanthrope to care about such things). So please, stop with the bigotry.

If this is to be a philosophy forum, it must be the honest pursuit of truth (that's what philosophy is after all, the love of wisdom), and not merely a place to voice ignorant, bigoted opinions of the Christian faith.

Are you the same FireDragon76 who wrote this at the outset of this discussion...?

It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.

What happened in the space of 38 pages...?