• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

The Problem of Evil

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by talquin, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Wokest Bae Of The Forum

    +532
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Constitution
    I never said anybody was owed anything, and I don't think that is resonating with you.

    If someone has to rationalize why the raping of a child for years, that could be prevented by someone or thing, is cosmically "ok" or just -and more so essentially their own fault- then that person is doing so solely because they have to justify their own cognitive dissonance.

    The inaction and silence of that someone or thing that could do something, but chooses not to, is shameful.
     
  2. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

    +2,536
    Atheist
    Private
    They are punished for not possessing a quality ostensibly possessed only by the divine - moral perfection.

    I don't even think that definition necessitates worship. The greatest conceivable being may not require or demand worship at all.
     
  3. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

    +803
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    CA-Conservatives
    When did I claim infallibility?

    Is it honest behaviour to use an argument to support your case that you don't believe is true?

    Because the consequences to people are objective. It doesn't matter if a god exists, or if a god doesn't exist.

    Furthermore, if morality means anything, then god must be held to the same moral code that we are.

    The difference between god and us, is that god is defined as being an example of perfect morality while we are not. Therefore, god should be held to a higher standard (one of absolute perfection).

    If we have an example of your god doing something, or ordering something that's clearly not moral, then your god can not exist. If we have an example of your god permitting something immoral to occur that he could prevent, then he can not exist.

    A creator god defined as amoral could exist, but not a morally perfect one. The world as we see it contradicts that possibility.

    I completely disagree, I think most people would still be considered good people even if you knew all their secrets. I believe I'm a good person, and I know all my secrets.

    I don't know of anyone that is perfect, but again, that's irrelevant.

    What's your justification for claiming that all people are morally bad?

    If we're not smart enough, then how can you claim we're all morally bad? This is a double edged sword... If we aren't smart enough to claim we're good, you can't be smart enough to claim we're bad as well. That's because under the premise of your argument we don't have a good enough understanding of the concepts.

    And teachings like that are why I view your religion as morally repugnant. It completely dehumanizes everyone and everything, and teaches you to hate yourself.

    I can't think of a more disgusting thing to teach people. That act of dehumanizing people is directly responsible for the vast majority of religious atrocities in this world.

    Actually, I don't really have much to hide. I'm fine talking about anything.

    Thinking about something and being willing to act upon something are two very different things. Having the thought of killing someone simply pop into your head does not mean you are immoral. The desire to act on that thought, and then putting an effort into seeing it through is what makes you immoral.

    I don't see how you can justify that, infinite perfection is a simple concept.

    Any deviation from perfection means something is not perfect. That's all there is to it. It is very easy to identify a thing that is not infinitely perfect, if it's ever made a mistake or misstep, it is not perfect. Any being that is claimed to be morally perfect, but then turns around and orders a genocide is not a morally perfect being.

    The irony is, it's impossible to identify something that is infinitely perfect, as we have no way of knowing if it'll get something wrong in the future. It may have never made an immoral decision up to now, but we don't know if it'll turn around and order a genocide tomorrow.

    What an odd position to take.... why would you do that?

    Then how were you convinced?

    So your salvation is dependent upon god miracling you into heaven essentially?

    So what about those people he decides to not bestow his miracle of hearing to? Do they wind up in hell?

    Actually, no.... it's not an illusion, nor arbitrary. Consciousness exists as is whether a god exists or not.

    I said that morality is anthropocentric, however its grounding is based on objective consequences of actions. Those are not arbitrary at all.
     
  4. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

    +803
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    CA-Conservatives
    I thought I was quite clear... bad things can be evil, but they are not necessarily evil.

    Basically, all evil things are bad, but not all bad things are evil. Showing up late for lunch is not evil, but it is bad.

    First off, I dispute that it's even properly defined as a minor evil.

    Secondly, as I said in my original post, things that are genuinely defined as evil (i.e. murder, rape) are better off never happening, rather than being allowed to occur so someone can be redeemed.

    To reiterate my example, a universe where your son was never murdered is better than a universe where your son was murdered, and you forgave his killer.


    And as I pointed out before, it's not semantics. All evil is bad, but not all bad is evil. Showing up late, or accidentally breaking a glass is bad, but it's not evil.
     
  5. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

    +803
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    CA-Conservatives

    I never claimed that, you're trying to put that on to me. I have no problems sharing personal history as I have nothing to hide.
     
  6. CryOfALion

    CryOfALion Newbie

    +46
    Non-Denom
    Private
    See you don't get it.

    We broke Universal Law. We deserve death. We are not guaranteed safety and happiness. Prevention is a privilege. Be blessed God doesn't delight in your torture, because He would be well within His righteousness to do so. Or, cry more.

    We opened the floodgates of calamity when we sinned. It is our fault. Not God's fault.
     
  7. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

    +2,592
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Stalin could say the same thing. Hey, it's your fault if you end up in the gulag!


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  8. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

    +2,536
    Atheist
    Private
    Given that God created flawed beings without the ability to morally appraise his commands and then blamed them for, surprise surprise, being flawed, it seems that it is indeed his fault. He could have prevented the Fall, having foreseen it. It doesn't even take omniscience to predict what would've happened given the way the situation was set up. Adam and Eve were set up to fail.
     
  9. talquin

    talquin Guest

    +0
    Is it our fault that a destructive typhoon slams into the Philippines, killing tens of thousands of people?
     
  10. talquin

    talquin Guest

    +0
    You must be talking about an impotent god.

    Let's say a little child in your town is getting raped and you are in a position to help that child easily. What do you do? Do you act as God and do nothing? Or do you help the child?
     
  11. Jeremy E Walker

    Jeremy E Walker Active Member

    897
    +15
    Christian
    In Relationship
    When seen in the light of what the Bible teaches.

    What is the rape of a child according to your perspective?
     
  12. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Wokest Bae Of The Forum

    +532
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Constitution
    I'm glad I am more moral and ethical than your god; it's like he's a North Korean dictator.

    And it's frightening that people think this way.
     
  13. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Wokest Bae Of The Forum

    +532
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Constitution
    That's messed up. The rationalizing you have to do...

    If you could do me a favor and state the that raping of children for years is only seen correctly/properly when when seen in the light of what the Bible teaches, in one complete sentence, I'd appreciate it.

    I fear others might get lost or not be able to put together what you said over these past few posts. I want to make sure you are representing yourself as fully and honestly as possible.

    A child being raped.
     
  14. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

    +803
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    CA-Conservatives
    Well, yes, it is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    The argument was an eternal punishment is never just for a finite crime. You're trying to compare finite crimes and see if differing finite punishments are just. It's a red herring.

    Different finite punishments are just for different finite crimes. An eternal punishment is never justifiable though.

    No, they aren't the same thing. The Star Trek universe is an internally logically consistent construct. Believing that the Star Trek universe is real, and that Captain Picard is out there fighting the Borg is not a rational belief.

    I've already explained it to you. Since you may not have read that response before writing this post, I'll defer to my already existing explanation on this thread.

    Because animate sentient beings have consciousness, feelings, emotions, etc. If god has empathy, then he would be morally obligated to care about any sentient being.

    Inanimate objects don't have those things.

    I'm sure you already understand this concept....

    Can you demonstrate it's an illusion? If not, why would we consider that a plausible scenario?

    Who is doing that? Is god not a sentient being? I said morality is based around sentient beings. Your god is held to the same moral code that we are.

    I don't think it's possible that morality could originate from a god, even if one did exist however.

    Sure, but you haven't demonstrated that evil is required for good to exist.

    You have demonstrated bad things exist in order for forgiveness to exist, and I agree with that. But, that's not a supporting point for your argument.

    You're missing the point entirely.

    While profound forgiveness can be a good and moral act under certain circumstances, it's not required for a perfectly good universe or realm.

    If all of the Jews decided en masse to forgive the Nazis for the holocaust, that means we live in a world where the holocaust still happened. The holocaust could not possibly happen in a world of perfect good.

    Therefore major acts of forgiveness can only exist in a place of imperfect actions or morality. In a place of perfect goodness and perfect morality, they are simply not required.

    If I hadn't given an explanation for why, you'd be correct... however I gave an explanation, and you totally ignored it.

    That's a rather creative and impressive dodge, but it doesn't address the point.

    Would heaven become a better place if Satan was allowed in to spread some evil throughout it?

    Because we were addressing Augustine's writings, I've never even brought up Epicurus.
     
  15. CryOfALion

    CryOfALion Newbie

    +46
    Non-Denom
    Private
    You aren't more moral and ethical; you are more emotional. You work on emotion and feelings. That makes the subject weak.

    And, you should take your qualms up with God - to His face. Don't use us as your spiritual scapegoat and exit for facing Him when we don't appease you argumentatively. If you think you are so great then take that up with Him... let's see if you can stand the heat.

    Oh yea, you still don't get it. You didn't answer anything addressed.
     
  16. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

    +803
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    CA-Conservatives

    Actually, yeah, that one's my bad.... sorry about that one guys! :)
     
  17. CryOfALion

    CryOfALion Newbie

    +46
    Non-Denom
    Private
    So what? You think if a God said don't lie, steal, lust... and you do it you deserve to be acquitted AND have a good, easy life? do you believe in responsibility? You broke universal law; "man up" and stop blaming a sky daddy you don't even believe in.

    Breaking laws has consequences. You are not owed a rape free, painless life because you ate you. So, stop being a baby and blaming a god for your problems 9th others I the world. People kill, steal, lie, cheat, rape, destroy, and so on. God doesn't make someone kill. Not even satan. Do you know why?

    YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.

    The blessing should be clear by the fact God preserves our whining behinds with luxuries like good tasting food, a blue sky and sex that isn't excruciating. We aren't owned anything.
     
  18. CryOfALion

    CryOfALion Newbie

    +46
    Non-Denom
    Private
    You do not get it. You do think you are owed rape-free, painless life because your focus is emotional, and on those things. You aren't owed anything in life at all - not air, water or emotional happiness. You do not realize how ingrained that is in your wants. And, you and people like you implicate a sky daddy you don't even believe in when in fact it isn't Him, or a Satan messing life up. IT IS HUMANS.

    Take responsibility.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
  19. CryOfALion

    CryOfALion Newbie

    +46
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I don't know what church people who hate what they think is an imaginary sky daddy go to, but your first sentence, and ultimately entire paragraph is wrong. Adam was not a BABY. HE WAS MATURE. And, as a mature perskn, when someone tells you not to do something - especially when that thing is your Father/God - you DON'T do it. ADAM did, and suffered consequences of breaking universal law.

    The rest of your post echos the same lame and flawed story that if someone does nothing they are powerless to do it, and/or unloving and uncaring. So human, so romantic, so Western.
     
  20. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

    +2,592
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Is it within my power to be morally perfect? Or does "Original Sin" stand in the way?

    Breaking a law is not self-evidently something that robs one of entitlement of humane treatment. It is possible to question the justice of a law, and of punishments for breaking a law. I'm sure that a dictator could tell you to "man up" about being sent to the gulag, but that does not place his actions beyond judgment.

    The problem here is that Christian doctrine puts an absurd amount of responsibility on human beings to live up to an impossible standard of morality, and then face dire eternal consequences for failing to do what it is not in their nature to do. Furthermore, one gets only one vanishingly short life (compared to infinity) to get one's infinite destiny right. One wrong move and one is treated like dirt.

    Yes, I certainly do believe in responsibility, but I also believe that there is a responsibility for any authority to treat human beings with full human dignity. There is a word for authorities that fail to do this -- tyrants.

    Bzzzt! Wrong. Apparently, Adam and Eve are responsible for Original Sin, and God is responsible for creating them without the wisdom to avoid eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. That is the logical consequence of Christian doctrine.

    The doctrine is all a house of cards.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
Loading...