The Problem of Evil

abacabb3

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I find that rather puzzling... I run into good people all the time, and I consider myself a good person as well.

You're a "good" person who would not his whole personal history known to everyone, nor his thoughts displayed for the world to see. That doesn't sound so good to me.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Last question: Should punching an 80 year old woman in the face be punished equally to punching the drunk trucker in the bar, as long as both only suffer with a black eye?

Yes.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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abacabb3

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You're talking apples and oranges. The punishment for hate crimes is still a finite punishment for a finite crime. It may be more serious than a similar non-hate crime, but that's irrelevant.
No, it's not irrelevant. I just want to see if we are on the same page. So, does whom the crime is inflicted against have any bearing at all on the punishment?

Well, even there I'd have to disagree. If you positively believe things that you can't demonstrate to be true, that is irrational. Even if your belief is internally consistent, that doesn't make it a rational belief.

Rationality and internal logical consistency are the same thing. There are rational men (i.e. Plato and Aristotle) with very different belief systems (idealism versus materialism), it does not make either irrational, though only one or neither can be right.

Whereas I disagree that those are presuppositions
How is making morality anthropocentric not a presupposition? Seriously, can you please explain this to me.

1) Morality is anthropocentric: First off, as I stated in a previous post "sentient being-centric" would be a better label.
What should compel GOd to care more about animate sentient beings than inanimate objects?

First off, we can demonstrate that moral actions, moral judgments, moral consequences, etc have a major and direct impact on humans and human society. Therefore, humans clearly play a role in morality.

What if that is an illusion though? What if we think we are making moral decisions that have meaning, but in reality they are meaningless?

To move beyond that and show that morality is not anthropocentric, we would then need to show something else non-human that plays a direct role in moral actions, judgments, etc.

If there is a deity, making morality centered around the creation instead of the creator that devised morality would literally seem morally bankrupt.

If your goal is a perfectly pure example of anything, you can not achieve a purer form of something by adding it's antithesis into the mix.
Yes, but you can be entirely lacking certain things without its antithesis. I already demonstrated this in my discussion of the concept of forgiveness.

As I mentioned in a previous post, you don't need evil in order to run into situations that require a level of forgiveness. Showing up late for a lunch date, or being clumsy and breaking someone's glass are acts that require a level of forgiveness, but aren't evil.

We already covered that this is merely semantics, but I think it is obvious to everyone that minor offenses require minor levels of forgiveness. Major offenses require profound levels of forgiveness. So, to make a universe without evil would essentially remove the existence of profound forgiveness, as there would be no situation that requires it. Is that absolutely, positively a better universe?

You may say "yes," but please keep in mind, your whole position is that there is no such things as something good that is increased by a correspondingly increased amount of evil. The idea of forgiveness as a positive good completely demolishes that contention, in my mind, casts doubt on your entire view of this matter.

As for serious crimes, or genuine examples of evil, I'd say the world would be a better place without that. A world where you forgive the person who murdered your kid is not as good as a world where your kid didn't get murdered at all. A world where a woman forgives her rapist is not as good as a world in which she hadn't been raped in the first place, etc.

According to whom? "To me." That seems like an arbitrary judgment call to me.

Heaven is a place which is commonly defined as being perfectly good. There is a complete absence of evil and sin in heaven.

Based upon your argument, heaven could then be improved by allowing Satan in the door to spread around some evil.

If you don't agree that the inclusion of evil would make heaven a better place, then you are forced into admitting a place of perfect goodness is a place that lacks all evil.

I really do like this example, as I have thought about it over the years.

I am sure you are not interested that Christian theology teaches that because hell is eternal (and I assure you that is your destiny apart from faith in Christ), that evil in our world view is completely mastered, but never completely disappears as it is punished eternally.

But back to my point. My view is that the temporary existence of evil, for a time, makes heaven better as it increases the glory that is in heaven. God's mercy to poor, pathetic evil souls like hopefully you some day and me is magnified by the fact that there was a time, though completely insignificant when compared to eternity, where we were wicked. Therefore, our eternal redemption is ever more something to be grateful for.

I was referring to Augustine

Why not Epicurus? Doesn't he assume there is a god in order to even make his argument?
 
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abacabb3

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I suppose it is fine to feel that way, but the vast majority of people would not agree with you. Most people find it more tragic when the poor are robbed from instead of the rich, because they can afford it less, or woman are hit instead of men, because of common decency.

However, because morality is not something objective, I cannot compel you to feel like how most other people feel about this.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Most people find it more tragic when the poor are robbed from instead of the rich, because they can afford it less, or woman are hit instead of men, because of common decency.

I find it more tragic as well. I feel the same way.

I just don't see what that has to do with law. I believe in equality under the law in which Lady Justice is blind to differences between people, ensuring that no one has special privileges, rich or poor, male or female.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the original issue -- the injustice of infinite punishments for finite crimes.

Even if I were to agree with you that hate crimes should be punished more harshly than non-hate crimes, or that crimes against the poor should be punished more harshly than crimes against the rich, or that crimes against women should be punished more harshly than crimes against men, we'd still be in the realm of the finite.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Because I am yet to meet a good person, and I bet you are not one either.

If by "good," you mean "morally perfect," then you're not likely to ever met someone who is "good." But why do we deserve worse? Why do we deserve eternal torment for not being morally perfect?

Are you asserting that we can go about throwing terms like "evil," "injustice" and "righteousness" around without even reflecting upon what our measure even is? There has to be some sort of definition to what evil is, and evil to whom, for us to speak about it meaningfully.

No, what I'm asking is what is meant by a "focal point." The term seems nebulous in this context.

Not if by Him not being glorified as much as He can be is considered "injury."

But why would it be? How does him not being glorified do him harm? Are you suggesting that human beings have the capacity to harm a deity simply by withholding worship from him?

True, but this is not a thread on that. I am not here positively asserting that claim.

So you do not claim that God is good, just, merciful, etc? Come on now, let's not pretend that you don't. Your claim that God deserves glory betrays you.

Because if a man wants to be treated like God (which many do) he does wrong, because he actually isn't. If God wants to be exalted as God, well, that would be truthful and consistent with His character.

You are assuming that being a God is enough to merit worship. Why? If that were enough, then why is it still necessary for that God set up a situation in which "mistakes" are inevitable by design, for him to then intervene to fix those mistakes solely for his own glorification? That is consistent with the character of a narcissist constantly in need of praise.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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If by "good," you mean "morally perfect," then you're not likely to ever met someone who is "good." But why do we deserve worse? Why do we deserve eternal torment for not being morally perfect?

Because God is holy very simply. His requirements are moral perfection. Be ye holy, for I am holy, and be ye perfect, for I am perfect come to mind.

But why would it be? How does him not being glorified do him harm? Are you suggesting that human beings have the capacity to harm a deity simply by withholding worship from him?

No he is not suggesting that at all. But God is grieved when we settle for less than what is best, when we reject Him for some imagined gain.

I have twins and I would be grieved deeply if they rejected my love, my care, my provision, and my attempts to show them how much I loved them in exchange for that which will hurt them and ultimately cause them much sorrow and grief.

You are assuming that being a God is enough to merit worship. Why? If that were enough, then why is it still necessary for that God set up a situation in which "mistakes" are inevitable by design, for him to then intervene to fix those mistakes solely for his own glorification? That is consistent with the character of a narcissist constantly in need of praise.

God is by definition, a being worthy of worship.

And do not be put off by our usage of the word "worship". We are creatures who worship. We all worship something or someone. It is who we are.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Because God is holy very simply. His requirements are moral perfection. Be ye holy, for I am holy, and be ye perfect, for I am perfect come to mind.

Which still doesn't answer the question. Why should human beings be punished with eternal torture for not being divine?

God is by definition, a being worthy of worship.

And do not be put off by our usage of the word "worship". We are creatures who worship. We all worship something or someone. It is who we are.

I'm not convinced that that is part of the definition. If a God exists, he may not require or demand worship at all.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Which still doesn't answer the question. Why should human beings be punished with eternal torture for not being divine?

Human beings are not punished for not being divine.



I'm not convinced that that is part of the definition. If a God exists, he may not require or demand worship at all.

If you intended to signify a being other than one worthy of worship when using the word "God" i.e. as some "god" or "deity", you should use a lower case "g". It cuts down on the ambiguity.

Whenever I see the word "God" with a capital "G", Anselm's "Greatest Conceivable Being" is what I have in mind and this being by definition is worthy of worship.
 
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Non sequitur

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When I hear of the problem of evil, I think of that event that happened where some under 6 yr old girl was kept and raped for 7+ years and think that some believe that a deity watched it and heard her prayers.

Every hour.

Every day.

And did nothing.


I cannot fathom the kind of justification one has to go through to not be sickened and appalled, nor the incredible mental gymnastics one has to go through to "bigger picture" it.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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When I hear of the problem of evil, I think of that event that happened where some under 6 yr old girl was kept and raped for 7+ years and think that some believe that a deity watched it and heard her prayers.

Every hour.

Every day.

And did nothing.


I cannot fathom the kind of justification one has to go through to not be sickened and appalled, nor the incredible mental gymnastics one has to go through to "bigger picture" it.

God sees everything that happens on the face of the earth. He sees far more horrific things than you have heard of or seen or will ever see.

He saw His sinless Son being tortured and beat beyond recognition and nailed to a cross between two criminals.

Christ Himself was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

He bore our sins, our pain, our sorrow, and our heartache while He was hanging on the cross.

Pain and suffering are only seen aright when viewed in light of the cross.
 
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Non sequitur

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God sees everything that happens on the face of the earth. He sees far more horrific things than you have heard of or seen or will ever see.

He saw His sinless Son being tortured and beat beyond recognition and nailed to a cross between two criminals.

Christ Himself was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

He bore our sins, our pain, our sorrow, and our heartache while He was hanging on the cross.

Pain and suffering are only seen aright when viewed in light of the cross.

Yes. Just like that. Didn't disappoint.

(You realize you said raping of children for years is only seen correctly/properly when viewed in another light/perspective??)
 
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CryOfALion

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I think in general people forget gods don't owe their creation anything, and we have broken, and confinhr to break Universal Law. There are punishments for doing this; we would expect the justice system to do its job against a proven murderer. We broke Universal Law. We aren't owed anything.

We aren't owed a life without murder, rape, assault, ailment, trauma, etc... When you don't have problems is a blessing, because our genetic father and mother chose to abdicate their dominion of this planet to something else in exchange for knowledge of good and evil. Imperfection cannot breed perfection. People cause problems for people, not God.

This life is a class to learn. 120 years compared to several googols of years in eternity is nothing.
 
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Non sequitur

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I think in general people forget gods don't owe their creation anything, and we have broken, and confinhr to break Universal Law. There are punishments for doing this; we would expect the justice system to do its job against a proven murderer. We broke Universal Law. We aren't owed anything.

We aren't owed a life without murder, rape, assault, ailment, trauma, etc... When you don't have problems is a blessing, because our genetic father and mother chose to abdicate their dominion of this planet to something else in exchange for knowledge of good and evil. Imperfection cannot breed perfection. People cause problems for people, not God.

This life is a class to learn. 120 years compared to several googols of years in eternity is nothing.

My parents created me and I don't think they owe me anything. But, I am glad they never said things like, "You brought that raping upon yourself, you know, when you look at the bigger picture. You were born, and everything."
 
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CryOfALion

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My parents created me and I don't think they owe me anything. But, I am glad they never said things like, "You brought that raping upon yourself, you know, when you look at the bigger picture. You were born, and everything."

God doesn't say that either. But, He is natural, and will allow everything to happen according to how it is supposed to naturally happen. Even "miracles" are natural, as well as the "super"natural.

But, let's not forget who started this s*** show in the first place. It is our sin that perpetuated this world as rotten as it is. It isn't God's fault it is ours. We lie. We spread thin our sexual intimacy. We murder our own kind. We exploit each other.


You don't need a Satan because we humans destroy enough ourselves. Satan/Azazel, that very one that tempted Adam and Eve - his name means "scapegoat." Satans have become scapegoats of deflection of responsibility. People are horrible enough without needing to blame a god, or using a scapegoat.
 
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Non sequitur

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God doesn't say that either. But, He is natural, and will allow everything to happen according to how it is supposed to naturally happen. Even "miracles" are natural, as well as the "super"natural.

He has intervened in the past by specifically not allowing things to naturally take their natural unimpeded course, and directly influencing things.

Given that, he actively chooses when to "naturally" allow things or to "naturally" make things happen, that otherwise wouldn't have.

He makes a choice.

But, let's not forget who started this s*** show in the first place. It is our sin that perpetuated this world as rotten as it is. It isn't God's fault it is ours. We lie. We spread thin our sexual intimacy. We murder our own kind. We exploit each other.

You don't need a Satan because we humans destroy enough ourselves. Satan/Azazel, that very one that tempted Adam and Eve - his name means "scapegoat." Satans have become scapegoats of deflection of responsibility. People are horrible enough without needing to blame a god, or using a scapegoat.

This sounds like something that a caricature of a 1950's abused wife would say about her husband, and it totally being her fault; she deserves it. But it hurts him that she's in pain.

But she did deserve it.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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a first and final note (post) , or not.
(I'm still 'human')

Yhvh is about to execute His vengeance upon the whole earth, without mercy.

In the past, His vengeance/ justice/ judgment was mixed with mercy,

but not this time. He's 'fed up' with the race of humans and their wickednesses (willful malicious hatred and blindness and nakedness and brutality) ...

and , no, He won't listen to arguments "for the defense". There aren't any anyway.

He knows everything, and always has known who are His. That's not just a given,

it is reality.

The reason no one gets a free 'pass', is that no one deserves it - everyone has been

given an honest opportunity or chance or time to seek the Creator. Or not(like I said, I'm still human).

If someone, anyone, in any country (yes, even that strange sounding and strange looking

chinese name in someone's posts/thread, that are in china but aren't chinese)

seeks the Creator, this is HIS PROMISE(and He's not man, that HE could lie),

will FIND HIM. ANYONE. ANYWHERE. They WILL FIND HIM if they seek Him with

all their heart (and soul? ) ... NOT if they try to get to HIM through the pope, or through a pastor,

or through buddha, or through islam, or through bargaining, (well, maybe - Gideaon bargained in a way with Him)....

or through any religion or means of men anywhere, no..... DIRECTLY ONLY to HIM, not through any man. ("HIM" includes absolutely YAHUSHUA MESSIAH, as HE SAYS SO and MADE IT SO).

He cares enough to have sent Yahushua Messiah to die for all men's sins so that they

"MAY" be saved. The rest is up to Him. Seek Him, and you won't be disappointed.

Seek any other way to Him, like through a man or method of your own devising,

and you don't have a chance.

GET IT! ? time is shorter than it has ever been on earth. SEEK HIM WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND. and that will make all the difference now on earth,

and eternally with Him in the most astonishing peace and joy anyone has ever known.

That's about it for now. (and there may or may not be a tomorrow - Yhvh knows).
 
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CryOfALion

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He has intervened in the past by specifically not allowing things to naturally take their natural unimpeded course, and directly influencing things.

Given that, he actively chooses when to "naturally" allow things or to "naturally" make things happen, that otherwise wouldn't have.

He makes a choice.

I have echoed this on several threads, but this life is mathematical ordered chaos. Controlled.

I don't think it is resonating with you that we aren't owed anything. Yet, this God is all but begging us to come to Him - even sending His Son to vindicate us.

Say to Zeus that you scoffed at his power, and existence, and doubted his power and authority. Let's see how far his patience goes (hint: look up Greek mythology.)


This sounds like something that a caricature of a 1950's abused wife would say about her husband, and it totally being her fault; she deserves it. But it hurts him that she's in pain.

But she did deserve it.

As I said, we are the ones who cause calamity. But, some of us would rather place the blame on a God they don't believe in instead of the actual culprits - humans/us.

We don't need a satan. We need to take responsibility for our actions, and stop blaming God.
 
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