The Problem of Evil

[CryOfALion]

No, I don't. Please stop telling me what I think, as I've told you this already.

I don't think I'm owed anything.

However, you have to justify a god that knows and watches children being raped, who can do something, but doesn't.

You don't get it: children or adult we all broke universal law and are seed of universal law breakers. Me, nor my progeny are guaranteed a life free of rape and calamity. That is a blessing. We brought all of this evil on ourselves. We are at fault.

God has already given us a chance at full life. This stuff in between - the cares of the world are trivia compared to the overall point of this narrative called life. There is even a parable about people who attend to the cares of this world - seed placed on rock with no good soil.

Emotions lie; why do you think evil exploits emotion so much. Truth is. Evil goes after the "innocent" for the purpose of polluting it. God is not an impotent daddy figure because this happens. He is just, and knows better than you do. 100 years of trauma is nothing compared to eternity. We are at spiritual war in case you didn't know. Our souls are the prize. Of course the enemy will do bad things to good people to psychologically mess us up. But, it is the ENEMY DOING IT, not God. Place the blame where it is due. Human, or evil jealous principalities. Don't be foolish and blame the One that gives us a chance at life.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, he wasn't. That is for people deflecting responsibility for a very real crime.

Adam was radiant, and charged with dominion over this planet, as well as an appointment of four stars for his existence alone (Enoch.) He was made in the image of God - who isn't stupid, and certainly isn't without responsibility. Adam broke Universal Law. HE knew the consequences because his Father told him. The serpent lied.

Omniscience does not excuse responsibility of individual choice.

Adam was created without the skill necessary to have any meaningful chance at succeeding when tested. The responsibility for this design flaw lies with the designer.

 

[CryOfALion]

Adam was created without the skill necessary to have any meaningful chance at succeeding when tested. The responsibility for this design flaw lies with the designer.

Yet the God of gods charged him with having dominion over an entire planet.

And naming all animals (functionally in their Hebrew names.)

And, use the stars - not a watch - for signs and seasons.

But he had suffocating ignorance that inherently drove him to do what God told him not to do?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yet the God of gods charged him with having dominion over an entire planet.

And naming all animals (functionally in their Hebrew names.)

And, use the stars - not a watch - for signs and seasons.

But he had suffocating ignorance that inherently drove him to do what God told him not to do?

Yes, he lacked the ability to morally appraise God's commands. He needed that in order to be able to succeed when he was tested. God could have given him superpowers and he still would have failed the test without that basic skill.

 

[CryOfALion]

Yes, he lacked the ability to morally appraise God's commands. He needed that in order to be able to succeed when he was tested. God could have given him superpowers and he still would have failed the test without that basic skill.

Teh lulz.

Adam was already a god. He was radiant and entrusted with celestial knowledge. He was made in the God of gods' image. He wasn't stupid.

He sinned.

You think the God of gods would endow an intellectual invalid with power of dominion without that object having responsibility?

Take responsibility for what you have done. Santa is real? That is a lie; you deserve Death by universal law.


You did it. Not Adam. Not God. You did it.

 

[CryOfALion]

Adam was created without the skill necessary to have any meaningful chance at succeeding when tested. The responsibility for this design flaw lies with the designer.

You wish. That would give you comfortable reason to blame God.

At the end if the day, you are responsible for your soul. God gave you a Way, but you blame Him for too many things already. Your blame is not just; there are principalities you don't even consider.

At least blame the right entity.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Not in Christianity. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much energy spent by the prophets and gospel writers trying to convince the newly saved not to feel guilt.

Perhaps if they didn't adhere to a religion which breeds guilt like nothing else, they wouldn't have to put so much effort into freeing people from it.

Then again, I don't think Christianity really tries to free people from feeling guilt. Guilt is what keeps a lot of people coming back to church.

That was the consequence of His actions. his sacrifice did substantially more than simply atone for our sin that, by the way some of us keep doing and blame Him for it.

Really?

Ok, so if that was just a consequence of his sacrifice, then for what other reason did god send him to earth to die?

Any Christian I have spoken to (and oddly enough you yourself allude to this belief in your very next paragraph) believes that Jesus died to atone for peoples sins. Salvation and atonement isn't a consequence, it's the basic point of the whole exercise.

As such, my point stands.

Well, honestly speaking what do you expect. We are already dead; meat sacks rotting away. We have been had by this serpent, and some of us believe he was still right. So, if I chose to die for people's sins to atone for them, then logically only those who believe I did that, and trust me would fall under the umbrella of my sacrifice. Why would I do it for people that hate me? Of course you have to believe He actually did what He did to gain His gifts. That should be logically sequential, or consequential.

What do I expect? I expect a good and moral god to create a world that wouldn't fall. I expect a god who would create people who are bound to be something more than rotting meat sacks doomed for eternal torture as a result of his creation.

And as I said in my original point, as a moral being I would not expect for you to die to atone for a crime that I committed. I would view your offer as a subversion of justice, and I would view my acceptance of that offer as scapegoating, which is also a subversion of justice.

If I committed a crime, I have a moral duty to pay for my crime. That's all there is to it. At the heart of it, Christianity is a way to avoid responsibility for your sins.

Innocence does not equate to stupidity, or lack of intellect.

Christ's sacrifice was about love. I think I will stop here with you.

When did I say anything about innocence equating to stupidity?

I said an innocent person being killed for the crimes of the guilty is immoral. Even if it is done with a loving intent, it's still a subversion of justice.

If god or Jesus were really about love, they'd set up reasonable laws, with reasonable punishments. Those crimes could be atoned for in full by the guilty parties without the need for an innocent person to be put to death.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Yet the God of gods charged him with having dominion over an entire planet.

And naming all animals (functionally in their Hebrew names.)

And, use the stars - not a watch - for signs and seasons.

But he had suffocating ignorance that inherently drove him to do what God told him not to do?

He didn't know how to distinguish good from evil, which is a design flaw when it comes to determining what are good actions and what are evil actions.

If Adam was created perfectly, then that means that god intended for Adam to fall into sin. That ultimately means the fallen world is god's intended design.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Teh lulz.

Adam was already a god. He was radiant and entrusted with celestial knowledge. He was made in the God of gods' image. He wasn't stupid.

And yet he lacked the basic ability to morally comprehend God's commands. As I said, he could have been created with superpowers and he still would have failed because he didn't have the resources necessary for him to succeed.

Take responsibility for what you have done. Santa is real? That is a lie; you deserve Death by universal law.

You did it. Not Adam. Not God. You did it.

What has anyone ever done to merit eternal torture as a punishment?

You wish. That would give you comfortable reason to blame God.

At the end if the day, you are responsible for your soul. God gave you a Way, but you blame Him for too many things already. Your blame is not just; there are principalities you don't even consider.

At least blame the right entity.

Isn't God the ultimate authority over his creation? Doesn't he therefore bear ultimate responsibility for his creation? Having foreseen the Fall, he could have prevented it. He could at least have given Adam the resources necessary to potentially succeed, instead of withholding that from him. As Dave noted, it seems that a fallen world was God's intended design.

 

[CryOfALion]

Perhaps if they didn't adhere to a religion which breeds guilt like nothing else, they wouldn't have to put so much effort into freeing people from it.

The culture of Hebrews and Christians felt guilt because they knew what they did as offense to the Most High God. And, they had responsibility; they didn't blame Him.

The people assuaging guilt were doing so in the promise of what Christ did.

Then again, I don't think Christianity really tries to free people from feeling guilt. Guilt is what keeps a lot of people coming back to church.

Again, this is human doctrine. Of course the message of Christ is exploited for capitalistic gains. God wants people's love and devotioj, not money.

Of you believe He wants money, you have been had. God specifically calls out the Pharisees, spiritual charlatans, and fakes who create doctrine falsely. It is in the bible canon. He gives insight that there will be fakes, antichrists and Pharisees.

Really?

Ok, so if that was just a consequence of his sacrifice, then for what other reason did god send him to earth to die?

That was a consequence of His Sacrifice. A consequence. He did much more.

Part of what He did was allow you the luxury of speaking unsavory about Him. Another is you get to choose if you believe in this nonsense, or you do. That is a luxury, trust me. You also get the chance at full life. Since you broke Universal Law against the God of gods, you should understand how precious a chance at full life (again) is.

Any Christian I have spoken to (and oddly enough you yourself allude to this belief in your very next paragraph) believes that Jesus died to atone for peoples sins. Salvation and atonement isn't a consequence, it's the basic point of the whole exercise.

That is what a consequence is - con sequence. We are saved as a consequence of His action if we believe - that is the consequence when the Most High sends His Son to die for you. A God dying for mankind is serious business. Miraculous results are merely consequential.

As such, my point stands.

Ok.

What do I expect? I expect a good and moral god to create a world that wouldn't fall. I expect a god who would create people who are bound to be something more than rotting meat sacks doomed for eternal torture as a result of his creation.

You have these expectations as someone who broke Universal Law? Interesting...

You are a Universal Criminal, and you want the Most High to be in your image of truth, fairness, justice, potency?

And as I said in my original point, as a moral being I would not expect for you to die to atone for a crime that I committed. I would view your offer as a subversion of justice, and I would view my acceptance of that offer as scapegoating, which is also a subversion of justice.

Morality... the pinnacle of human logic, reason and scruples.

Still as filthy as a spotted rag to God. Morality doesn't compare to spiritual justice because morals are for entities that die.

If I committed a crime, I have a moral duty to pay for my crime. That's all there is to it. At the heart of it, Christianity is a way to avoid responsibility for your sins.

Wrong. Christians struggle daily with guilt and our relationship with our Father. We know very well what we have done, and as I said before it takes a tremendous amount of energy to convince some of us we don't have to feel guilty for our actions. We take responsibility beyond "woe is me." We understand the ramifications of our sin. We don't "avoid responsibility." We deserve to die; we hope and have faith in Christian that we will be perfected and brought to life. That is based on faith; we know we don't deserve anything. I don't know who you have been talking to about Christianity. This is not a joke to us.

When did I say anything about innocence equating to stupidity?

I said an innocent person being killed for the crimes of the guilty is immoral. Even if it is done with a loving intent, it's still a subversion of justice.

If god or Jesus were really about love, they'd set up reasonable laws, with reasonable punishments. Those crimes could be atoned for in full by the guilty parties without the need for an innocent person to be put to death.

Right. This is about where I stopped last time with you.

 

[CryOfALion]

And yet he lacked the basic ability to morally comprehend God's commands. As I said, he could have been created with superpowers and he still would have failed because he didn't have the resources necessary for him to succeed.

How lame; it wasn't Adam's fault, if was God's fault for tempting Adam, and creating him destined for failure. God forbid Adam take some responsibility, especially when God told him the details. Wow...

What has anyone ever done to merit eternal torture as a punishment?

Violated Universal Law against the Most High God. Luckily for us, He gave us an out in the form of His son - even if you don't believe it.

Isn't God the ultimate authority over his creation? Doesn't he therefore bear ultimate responsibility for his creation? Having foreseen the Fall, he could have prevented it. He could at least have given Adam the resources necessary to potentially succeed, instead of withholding that from him. As Dave noted, it seems that a fallen world was God's intended design.

NO. OMNISCIENCE does not excuse responsibility. And, "righting" every wrong yields no learning. The enemies need to learn God is not a lame entity, and that their actions are moot. They can't learn this unless their actions are fully met through. Calamity against men falls under that action. God allows this for men. That is why it rains on the rich and poor, because no one deserves better no matter how "good" you are. You offended the Most High God. You deserve death.

God is scientific and natural, not magical. He will let you destroy yourself naturally, or to come to Him. It is YOUR CHOICE after all.

Given that you are not infinite, or a holder of Godly intellect, why do you think you would even know better than Him, philosophically?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

How lame; it wasn't Adam's fault, if was God's fault for tempting Adam, and creating him destined for failure. God forbid Adam take some responsibility, especially when God told him the details. Wow...

Why should Adam take responsibility? He had no say in how he was created. Why shouldn't the creator take some responsibility for creating a flawed world, instead of scapegoating Adam for intrinsic design flaws that Adam had no say in?

Violated Universal Law against the Most High God.

And why does that merit eternal torture as a punishment?

Luckily for us, He gave us an out in the form of His son - even if you don't believe it.

https://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/how-to-talk-to-a-christian

NO. OMNISCIENCE does not excuse responsibility. And, "righting" every wrong yields no learning. The enemies need to learn God is not a lame entity, and that their actions are moot.

What better way to learn this than by God intervening to show them that their actions are moot?

They can't learn this unless their actions are fully met through. Calamity against men falls under that action. God allows this for men. That is why it rains on the rich and poor, because no one deserves better no matter how "good" you are. You offended the Most High God. You deserve death.

So you keep saying. Yet you can't tell me why anyone deserves to be tortured forever for merely "offending" a being that is ostensibly all loving.

Given that you are not infinite, or a holder of Godly intellect, why do you think you would even know better than Him, philosophically?

It doesn't require a Godly intellect to recognise what's wrong with the prevailing narrative surrounding the Fall.

 

[abacabb3]

Sure, I have watched a couple videos on YouTube, I've visited Facebook, a dating site (don't worry, I'm single lol), this website, CNN, The Toronto Sun newspaper, Wikipedia, Google Maps, Pizza Hut and another local restaurant.

I don't view anything particularly immoral in there.

How about a screenshot?

 

[Non sequitur]

You don't get it: children or adult we all broke universal law and are seed of universal law breakers. Me, nor my progeny are guaranteed a life free of rape and calamity. That is a blessing. We brought all of this evil on ourselves. We are at fault.

God has already given us a chance at full life. This stuff in between - the cares of the world are trivia compared to the overall point of this narrative called life. There is even a parable about people who attend to the cares of this world - seed placed on rock with no good soil.

Emotions lie; why do you think evil exploits emotion so much. Truth is. Evil goes after the "innocent" for the purpose of polluting it. God is not an impotent daddy figure because this happens. He is just, and knows better than you do. 100 years of trauma is nothing compared to eternity. We are at spiritual war in case you didn't know. Our souls are the prize. Of course the enemy will do bad things to good people to psychologically mess us up. But, it is the ENEMY DOING IT, not God. Place the blame where it is due. Human, or evil jealous principalities. Don't be foolish and blame the One that gives us a chance at life.

Last time. I'm not saying we are owed a life free of rape or calamity, nor owed good times or fluffy pillows.

The child rapist is responsible for what he is doing.

But the fact remains, your supposed god saw it happen daily for years (the tears and the prayers), and while he could do something, he did nothing.

I think that could part is lost on you, because you are too busy defending and justifying inaction.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The culture of Hebrews and Christians felt guilt because they knew what they did as offense to the Most High God. And, they had responsibility; they didn't blame Him.

The people assuaging guilt were doing so in the promise of what Christ did.

Agreed, your religion breeds guilt. Thanks for proving my point.

Now of course, if they had any reason to believe that they actually offended a god, then we could determine if their guilt is justified. Until we can demonstrate your god exists, I'd say it's completely unjustified guilt.

Again, this is human doctrine. Of course the message of Christ is exploited for capitalistic gains. God wants people's love and devotioj, not money.

God may not want your money, but your church sure does.

Of you believe He wants money, you have been had. God specifically calls out the Pharisees, spiritual charlatans, and fakes who create doctrine falsely. It is in the bible canon. He gives insight that there will be fakes, antichrists and Pharisees.

I'd make the argument that all of the doctrine is false.

That was a consequence of His Sacrifice. A consequence. He did much more.

Part of what He did was allow you the luxury of speaking unsavory about Him. Another is you get to choose if you believe in this nonsense, or you do. That is a luxury, trust me. You also get the chance at full life. Since you broke Universal Law against the God of gods, you should understand how precious a chance at full life (again) is.

That is what a consequence is - con sequence. We are saved as a consequence of His action if we believe - that is the consequence when the Most High sends His Son to die for you. A God dying for mankind is serious business. Miraculous results are merely consequential.

Ok.

So basically, you're tossing out a big red herring with the whole consequence thing. As you acknowledged, my original point still stands that the basic point to the sacrifice was for the atonement of sin and salvation.

As such, the thought of an innocent person being put to death for the crimes of the guilty is an inherently immoral act. If that was God's intent (and I've never met a christian who said it wasn't), then god purposefully set up an immoral system of atonement.

That in itself precludes god from being a perfect moral being. The best you can say is he's at least partially good, but not perfect.

You have these expectations as someone who broke Universal Law? Interesting...

You are a Universal Criminal, and you want the Most High to be in your image of truth, fairness, justice, potency?

Except I didn't break universal law. I challenge your assertion that universal law even exists.

However, even if it did, and even if I had broken it, that doesn't prevent me from having an understanding of morality. Nor would it preclude me from understanding what would be a truly just system.

Morality... the pinnacle of human logic, reason and scruples.

Still as filthy as a spotted rag to God. Morality doesn't compare to spiritual justice because morals are for entities that die.

So, morality isn't for your god then?

That speaks volumes....

Wrong. Christians struggle daily with guilt and our relationship with our Father. We know very well what we have done, and as I said before it takes a tremendous amount of energy to convince some of us we don't have to feel guilty for our actions. We take responsibility beyond "woe is me." We understand the ramifications of our sin. We don't "avoid responsibility." We deserve to die; we hope and have faith in Christian that we will be perfected and brought to life. That is based on faith; we know we don't deserve anything. I don't know who you have been talking to about Christianity. This is not a joke to us.

I'll take that as further backing for my point that Christianity breeds guilt in people like nothing else.

But any way you slice it, if you allow Christ to atone for the sins you committed, you are abdicating responsibility for your sin. A moral person would be morally bound to pay for their own crimes.

Right. This is about where I stopped last time with you.

Is that because you can't address the issue?

 

[Dave Ellis]

How about a screenshot?

I'm not sure how to do that.

But on that note, are you calling me a liar?

 

[abacabb3]

I'm not sure how to do that.

But on that note, are you calling me a liar?

It would just be highly atypical for a single man not to have inappropriate contentography is his recent viewing history, especially when he would likely have no moral qualms about it.

 

[Dave Ellis]

It would just be highly atypical for a single man not to have inappropriate contentography is his recent viewing history, especially when he would likely have no moral qualms about it.

There is no inappropriate content in my viewing history over the last 72 hours.

Even if there had been though, what's your point?

 

[PsychoSarah]

It would just be highly atypical for a single man not to have inappropriate contentography is his recent viewing history, especially when he would likely have no moral qualms about it.

Way to 1, underestimate self control of other people and 2, assume that being an atheist makes you more likely to be ok with inappropriate content and watch it frequently.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Way to 1, underestimate self control of other people and 2, assume that being an atheist makes you more likely to be ok with inappropriate content and watch it frequently.

Well, it should be said I don't have a problem with inappropriate content, I just don't have any in my viewing history over the last few days.

I've also been pretty busy with work over the last few days and haven't been on my home computer much. I'm currently on my personal laptop at work, and I'm not going to be watching any inappropriate content here either.