The Problem of Evil and Free Will

[com7fy8]

First, even if we do not know why this or that, and if we do not have an explanation of something, still the Bible already tells us what to do about evil.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

And God is the one true living Supreme Being of goodness of love, and He is the One who is able to make us able to overcome evil with good. So, we can not afford to put off trusting Him, right now, to take care of us and guide us. If we refuse or neglect to trust and obey how He delivers us from evil, then we are refusing the only real Resource who can do any real good about the evil in this world.

Also, if we trust and depend on Jesus, we have Jesus who is so unbelievably wonderful and loving and kind; we have Him, even if there is whatever and whoever which evil might have taken away or will take away. And Satan can't steal Jesus!

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

So basically the problem goes: "Why did God create a world that would be filled with evil?"

I consider > there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). Before God made all good things, there already was the spirit of evil in existence. God who is all-good did not bring the spirit of evil into existence. But God is our God of order;so He in His all-control of things has managed the spirit of evil in orderly form, including on this earth. He has not allowed Satan's nasty and wicked and selfish spirit to just be and flow anywhere . . . like how humans keep sewage in vessels and pipes and treatment areas.

And there can be a special sewer waiting to finally collect that sewage. Like this, hell is the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone, and Satan is a sewer pot of his filth of bitterness, nasty angry reacting, complaining and arguing, unforgiveness, dominating and dictatorial passions and drives for pleasure, and worry and self-righteous judging. And there are humans who are serving as vessels of such nasty stuff, helping to transport it all to the flaming sewer.

So, if you don't want people to be sewer buckets, then be a vessel of God's love and joy and peace and kindness and compassion and tender family sharing and caring with our Heavenly Father and our Groom Jesus and us who are God's children . . . discovering and enjoying how Jesus gives us "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30), in spite of all the evil in this world.

why didn't God just make us Good from the start so that we wouldn't ever 'Fall'?"

And the typical answer is: "Because if He did that, we wouldn't have free will, and we would be nothing but puppets/robots."

There are people whose own independence is an idol for them; and so they want to believe they have their own free wills. Others have heard the robot argument and they are repeating what they have been told, which is not so written in the Bible.
And, by the way - - the Bible does say that God made humans and other creatures . . . "very good" . . .
in Genesis chapter ne So, humans were made good!

And do you think that humans who were good got their own selves to change to become evil? To me, this would not be spiritually logical. I don't think a spiritually good being will of its own nature choose to become evil. But what is good can be overpowered and corrupted.

But Jesus is God's own Son, of God's own good nature incapable of evil and He is almighty in power so no evil can get the better of Him. So, we might move right to an important thing, then > Jesus in us is able to share with us His own immunity against how any evil would effect us. Jesus is sharing, like this ! ! ! Galatians 4:19 So, I would say this needs our attention, much more than a theological explanation does.

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

So, in case evil is getting to us, because of our weakness, it is wise to not just be in denial about our own nature being our problem. Instead, trust Jesus to change us so His grace (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) is taking care of us, spiritually and emotionally, including >

"and be renewed in the spirit of your mind," (Ephesians 4:23)

And if we pray the way God's word says to pray > Philippians 4:6-7 < here, Paul says, "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." So, with Jesus our "hearts and minds" are guaranteed soundness and safety - - - including, as He says, "you will find rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, while the Bible may not make a point of explaining certain items, it is very clear what we need to do about evil, and what to expect if we trust and obey and depend on Jesus.

So . . . my opinion-explanation includes that humans do have free will, but our real character is more or less our dictator of what we are able to choose in our free wills. And the spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2) has more or less effect on how our character is. And God (Philippians 2:13) has more or less of a direct effect on how our character is. And I understand that there is no middle ground, where we of our own selves totally control ourselves apart from God and apart from Satan's spirit. We can, though, experience that we are controlling our own selves, independently; but I suspect we all have experienced things and then discovered that what we were sure of was not so. We experience free will, then, yes; but if we are so free, why don't we choose to constantly share with God in His love and do only what He has us doing in intimate sharing with Him in His peace . . . like Colossians 3:15 says Christians are "in one body" "called" to do? < if we are truly free, why would we choose less?

Our character takes us elsewhere because we have been contaminated by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). But God is able to correct this > Hebrews 12:4-11. So, this is what we need to do, whether we have explanations or not.

And God wants us to be good to each other, not trying to force and pressure anyone to do what we dictate (Ephesians 5:21, 1 Peter 5:3, Hebrews 5:2, Galatians 6:1). So, in loving relating, we treat one another as though we have free wills . . . though our wills are not really autonomous.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I keep getting drawn into this topic in various threads that aren't quite on topic with this, so I thought I would start a new thread and open it up to the community to see if there is any other answer to The Problem of Evil other than "free will".

So basically the problem goes: "Why did God create a world that would be filled with evil?" We can call "evil" just any negative thing. Death is evil. Crime is evil. Pain is evil, etc.

The typical answer is: "He didn't, we made evil when we Fell".

Then the response to that is: "So why didn't God just make us Good from the start so that we wouldn't ever 'Fall'?"

And the typical answer is: "Because if He did that, we wouldn't have free will, and we would be nothing but puppets/robots."

If I've misrepresented either side of this argument, let me know, and I'll edit the OP to reflect it. This seems about right though.

I think you've adequately represented Christians, but you leave off the follow-up question where the atheist asks, "Will we sin when we get to heaven?"

I answer this on behalf of the Christians with my flow chart here:

I've yet to see an adequate response to this. I've even seen people tell me that this yes/no issue is a false dichotomy (???), and when I ask them what the third option is they provide nothing. The only one who gave it a serious shot was OnceDeceived, as she claimed that it would be logically impossible for God to initially create us in the redeemed state that we will assume upon entering heaven; in other words she said that the notion of God creating us in this manner initially is incoherent and on the level of trying to construct a square circle. Or maybe just ask her, perhaps I'm misrepresenting her or perhaps her position has changed (hopefully as a result of that conversation). It's quite apparent that if you follow the "free will" argument to its logical conclusion, there is no point to our existence on this earth.

Also, if anyone has a different answer to The Problem of Evil, feel free to argue that too. I just know that at least 90% of my answers are going to be "free will" so I'm getting out ahead of it.

There is no problem of evil. God is not described as omni-benevolent in the Bible; in fact I think it is excruciatingly obvious that the Bible takes great pains to do the opposite. The problem of evil is introduced when we burden a warlord deity with the ethics of a more advanced, civilized world. So... problem solved?

So now my response is, "If always doing good means you don't have free will, then God doesn't have free will because He always does good". But maybe somehow God is an exception to the rule somehow.

The thing that invalidates God's free will is his infallible and comprehensive knowledge of the future.

So then what about once you're in Heaven? You have free will, you'll never sin again. Why not start people off that way? But maybe you need to go through a process, it can't be instantaneous.

Ah, OK, so you do pursue that line of reasoning. I just had to read a little further.

So then what about babies that pass away? They go to Heaven without ever enduring any earthly, spiritual process. Without ever choosing to follow God here on Earth. Once there, they get the perfectly sinless nature and never do evil. They go through their entire existence without ever sinning once, but they still have free will. Of course, it would be ridiculous to think that God is incapable of letting that baby grow up in Heaven with his perfect nature in tact. Surely God isn't incapable of maturing an immature being if He can create a fully mature being from dust. So I hope no one is going to answer that babies stay babies in Heaven forever.

Keep going, let's work out the logics of heaven. Maybe God didn't destroy the Tower of Babel, but rather stole it and placed it in heaven so that all inhabitants of heaven could speak the same language.

So, the alternate proposed process that God could follow is thus:

1. Create a being that is not mature enough to be held accountable for his choices/actions.
2. Bestow upon that being the infinitely good nature that allows it to never sin without controlling its will.
3. Mature that being into a fully mature, intelligent being that has free will but never sins.

Now honestly, it seems like I shouldn't have to go so far. God isn't omnipotent, in my opinion, if He can't just do all of this instantly. But whatever argument you have that pushes it to this point, let's just skip to here instead of dragging it out over the course of pages and pages.

Now if God followed this process, for every single being He ever created, including Satan and all the fallen angels, then the universe would have no sin in it whatsoever, and free will could still abound. Free will isn't what limits God's ability to create beings that aren't puppets/robots. So the question is, if God can avoid ever allowing evil to exist, why did He want it to exist in the first place? If anyone ever does something, it is either because they want to, or because they need to. So since God didn't need to create evil (albeit indirectly) why did He want to create evil (again, indirectly)?

OK I see where you're going here, I like this method you're using. First you establish that God must be doing something with dead infants, and then you show that it wouldn't make sense for him to create us as we are instead of creating us in the state that he creates for the infants. Interesting. I'll read the responses that have preceded mine and see what they made of this.

 

[Greg J.]

So now my response is, "If always doing good means you don't have free will, then God doesn't have free will because He always does good". But maybe somehow God is an exception to the rule somehow.

Free will itself is not connected to the idea of always doing good. It is having the option to do good. God has perfect free will (more free will than anyone on earth has). With that free will, he always decides to do what is good. Because he is God (never lies, know the whole future, etc.), what he said is completely trustworthy for the future as well as the past, and we can correctly say God has always only done good and always will. This has a different meaning than if a person finally succeeds at always doing good. Nothing and no one is more powerful than God (to make him do one thing or another) or knows the future (so he won't find himself in an unexpected situation). One could consider it a little strange to suggest that God has less free will than we do.

So then what about once you're in Heaven? You have free will, you'll never sin again. Why not start people off that way? But maybe you need to go through a process, it can't be instantaneous.

In the next life, we will have perfected free will, and will still have the choice to do good or evil, however, we will always choose to do good (because we want to). Needless to say, such an existence is not familiar to most people of earth.

So, the alternate proposed process that God could follow is thus:

1. Create a being that is not mature enough to be held accountable for his choices/actions.
2. Bestow upon that being the infinitely good nature that allows it to never sin without controlling its will.
3. Mature that being into a fully mature, intelligent being that has free will but never sins.

Now honestly, it seems like I shouldn't have to go so far. God isn't omnipotent, in my opinion, if He can't just do all of this instantly. But whatever argument you have that pushes it to this point, let's just skip to here instead of dragging it out over the course of pages and pages.

Now if God followed this process, for every single being He ever created, including Satan and all the fallen angels, then the universe would have no sin in it whatsoever, and free will could still abound.

God didn't go through a process, such as deciding how easy it would be to choose to do good. What he did is made us exactly like the way he is.

... why did He want it to exist in the first place? If anyone ever does something, it is either because they want to, or because they need to. So since God didn't need to create evil (albeit indirectly) why did He want to create evil (again, indirectly)?

There is a difference between wanting evil to exist and knowing it would exist. He has never wanted evil to exist. But he works with whatever conditions we create in the world. What he wanted to do is create beings like himself. You may ask, if Adam was actually like God, then why didn't he always choose to do good? You'll have to ask Adam. That's exactly what God wanted Adam to do, but he chose not to. Perhaps you can relate due to decisions you face (but Adam made his decision without the burden of the effects of past sin).

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

Well then He's a perfect example for what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to remove free will from people, I'm trying to remove free will from the argument. If Jesus had free will, but there was 0% chance of Him sinning, then people can have free will, and have 0% chance of sinning. There's something else to it that causes people to sin rather than just the choice of doing it or not.

Isn't "0% chance" actually removing free will, though?

Free will implies choice. Perfection ups the odds of success, but does not guarantee it.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Isn't "0% chance" actually removing free will, though?

Yes.

Free will implies choice. Perfection ups the odds of success, but does not guarantee it.

No.

 

[Moral Orel]

what about Isaiah 45:7?!

"I make peace, and create evil." That isn't direct enough for you?

 

[Moral Orel]

Isn't "0% chance" actually removing free will, though?

I would think so, but if there's no sin in Heaven, then I guess not. If there's only the slightest chance, then given an infinite amount of time, eventually someone is going to sin. You didn't really answer me about sin in Heaven, though. I don't know if that's because your view is based more on JW and wouldn't be welcome here or not, but I kind of need to know where you're coming from to talk about this with you.

Free will implies choice. Perfection ups the odds of success, but does not guarantee it.

Perfection isn't perfection if it doesn't guarantee it. It's just really, really, good. God is perfect. Is there any chance of Him doing anything wrong or making a mistake? If not, then you need a different word for "perfection" when you're talking about humans who will still make mistakes (even if only ever so often).

 

[Moral Orel]

I have to ask some questions to make sure I know where you're coming from before I can make any real response.

I consider > there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). Before God made all good things, there already was the spirit of evil in existence. God who is all-good did not bring the spirit of evil into existence. But God is our God of order;so He in His all-control of things has managed the spirit of evil in orderly form, including on this earth. He has not allowed Satan's nasty and wicked and selfish spirit to just be and flow anywhere . . . like how humans keep sewage in vessels and pipes and treatment areas.

Is "the spirit of evil" eternal like God? Has it always existed just like He has?

And, by the way - - the Bible does say that God made humans and other creatures . . . "very good" . . .
in Genesis chapter ne So, humans were made good!

But not good enough, and that's kind of the point of the argument.

And do you think that humans who were good got their own selves to change to become evil? To me, this would not be spiritually logical. I don't think a spiritually good being will of its own nature choose to become evil. But what is good can be overpowered and corrupted.

When all the angels were created originally, were they created "good" like us? If so, then how did Satan go evil? This may be answered by the previous question of whether "the spirit of evil" is eternal, like God. If it is, then I suppose that would explain Satan's corruption.

So is God incapable of destroying this "spirit of evil"? He is only capable of redirecting it down a sewer, but not really capable of making it cease to exist? That would be strange to me.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

I would think so, but if there's no sin in Heaven, then I guess not. If there's only the slightest chance, then given an infinite amount of time, eventually someone is going to sin. You didn't really answer me about sin in Heaven, though. I don't know if that's because your view is based more on JW and wouldn't be welcome here or not, but I kind of need to know where you're coming from to talk about this with you.

Perfection isn't perfection if it doesn't guarantee it. It's just really, really, good. God is perfect. Is there any chance of Him doing anything wrong or making a mistake? If not, then you need a different word for "perfection" when you're talking about humans who will still make mistakes (even if only ever so often).

Let me just say, that I kind of like the way you think. Perhaps it's a little too exhaustive at times, and might even be a bit circular, but you ARE a deep thinker, and I like people like that.

You might need to remind me of the direct question about heaven, because I had thought that my examples of the book of Job had clarified that at least rebellious thought was indeed not only possible in heaven, but happened and was dealt with.

I haven't been warned yet about my posts thusfar on this thread, and I was kind of trying to keep it that way, but I am willing to answer any questions you may have.

See, in my view of eternal life on earth, it doesn't mean that we won't ever break a bone if we fall out of a tree, it means our bodies will always heal, never age, never lose the abilities of youth. Similarly, we will be more perfectly equipped to avoid sin, but we will not be magically shielded from it or its consequences.

In a way I feel like you're saying that if we cannot be exactly like God (immune to sin), then we cannot be counted as perfect. But perfect for us is not the same as perfect for him. We are the created, he is the creator.

 

[Moral Orel]

I think you've adequately represented Christians, but you leave off the follow-up question where the atheist asks, "Will we sin when we get to heaven?"

I didn't think I needed to ask. I was surprised when I saw someone insinuate that there might actually be sin in Heaven. He's a Jehova's Witness though, so he's a bit reluctant sharing his specific theology here, as I think that might be against the rules, so it's fine if he doesn't feel comfortable explaining further.

I've yet to see an adequate response to this. I've even seen people tell me that this yes/no issue is a false dichotomy (???), and when I ask them what the third option is they provide nothing. The only one who gave it a serious shot was OnceDeceived, as she claimed that it would be logically impossible for God to initially create us in the redeemed state that we will assume upon entering heaven; in other words she said that the notion of God creating us in this manner initially is incoherent and on the level of trying to construct a square circle. Or maybe just ask her, perhaps I'm misrepresenting her or perhaps her position has changed (hopefully as a result of that conversation). It's quite apparent that if you follow the "free will" argument to its logical conclusion, there is no point to our existence on this earth.

I had the same exact discussion with her and several others. I also found the same argument on WLC's site, so I know where the script comes from. They all hit a wall when I brought up the babies though. I'm half tempted to pose the question to WLC's site too, just to see what he says.
This is actually a really watered down version of an argument I saw that said if God existed, he would only create more Gods (not little 'g') and they would only create more Gods, etc. That won't fly here though, no one will get past the idea that there can be only one God.

There is no problem of evil. God is not described as omni-benevolent in the Bible; in fact I think it is excruciatingly obvious that the Bible takes great pains to do the opposite. The problem of evil is introduced when we burden a warlord deity with the ethics of a more advanced, civilized world. So... problem solved?

1 John 4:8 is probably the basis for the idea. But it's backed up by more than that. I'll just take it as a given that the Bible makes the claim. But arguments like this attempt to show it to be false.

The thing that invalidates God's free will is his infallible and comprehensive knowledge of the future.

I can't get behind that one. I've heard it before, but I still think that if someone knows what you're going to choose, it doesn't mean you didn't choose it yourself. When it comes to God, it gets all wonky when you start thinking about Him existing outside of time itself, and that makes my head hurt.

Keep going, let's work out the logics of heaven. Maybe God didn't destroy the Tower of Babel, but rather stole it and placed it in heaven so that all inhabitants of heaven could speak the same language.

Wuuut? I'm guessing you're just being sarcastic about Heaven being illogical. The Tower of Bable is one of my favorite stories in the Bible. Did you know, that if we all work together, we can be omnipotent too? Plus it's the beginning of racism, so...

OK I see where you're going here, I like this method you're using. First you establish that God must be doing something with dead infants, and then you show that it wouldn't make sense for him to create us as we are instead of creating us in the state that he creates for the infants. Interesting. I'll read the responses that have preceded mine and see what they made of this.

Yep, it's the next step that WLC doesn't address, so the answer isn't in the script.

 

[Moral Orel]

You might need to remind me of the direct question about heaven

Do people get kicked out of Heaven when they sin? The bad angels did once, but I don't know if it's continually happening. I've never heard about any people getting kicked out of Heaven, though. I've always been under the impression that if you do right on Earth, you get eternal life in Heaven. Which wouldn't be eternal if you got kicked out.

because I had thought that my examples of the book of Job had clarified that at least rebellious thought was indeed not only possible in heaven, but happened and was dealt with.

Well, it addresses angels, but they follow a different rule set than us in a lot of ways, so I wasn't sure if the same rule applied to us as them. I think I might be confused about your view of what happened in Job though. Satan already had his Fall before Job, and for a while God still let him visit, but then put a stop to that. The story of Job wasn't the Fall of Satan itself, was it?

See, in my view of eternal life on earth, it doesn't mean that we won't ever break a bone if we fall out of a tree, it means our bodies will always heal, never age, never lose the abilities of youth. Similarly, we will be more perfectly equipped to avoid sin, but we will not be magically shielded from it or its consequences.

Eternal life "on Earth"? I thought the Earth was eventually destroyed and people lived forever in Heaven...

In a way I feel like you're saying that if we cannot be exactly like God (immune to sin), then we cannot be counted as perfect. But perfect for us is not the same as perfect for him. We are the created, he is the creator.

If it means different things, then you shouldn't use the same word. Now I could understand if you were drawing a distinction between God being wholly perfect, as in perfectly good, perfectly intelligent, etc.

But if we're describing the same quality (sinlessness) and we use the same word (perfect) then we should mean exactly the same thing. That's what perfect means, 100%. Not 99.999%.

Plus, if people can still sin in Heaven, then it isn't perfect bliss for everyone. Say there's Jim and Bob in Heaven. Bob stays perfectly sinless, never does anything wrong, but Jim comes up and knocks him over the skull with a rock. Heaven isn't perfect for Bob anymore. Is Heaven not perfect either?

 

[Moral Orel]

In the next life, we will have perfected free will, and will still have the choice to do good or evil, however, we will always choose to do good (because we want to). Needless to say, such an existence is not familiar to most people of earth.

Lots of people have different terms for the quality I'm talking about. Someone else in the thread refers to it as "Godly love" you refer to it as "perfected free will". That's fine, I can use whatever term you want to use.

God didn't go through a process, such as deciding how easy it would be to choose to do good. What he did is made us exactly like the way he is.

But that isn't true. God has perfected free will, which means He will never choose to sin. Adam did choose to sin, therefore Adam did not have that quality. Why didn't God give Adam perfected free will? Remember, God can and does give people perfected free will without ever needing to choose God while here on Earth, refer back to the OP if you don't remember how I arrived at that conclusion.

There is a difference between wanting evil to exist and knowing it would exist.

Yes there is. But if God is capable of making His creation in such a way that evil never existed, but chose to make it in such a way that evil does exist, then He wants evil to exist.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I didn't think I needed to ask. I was surprised when I saw someone insinuate that there might actually be sin in Heaven. He's a Jehova's Witness though, so he's a bit reluctant sharing his specific theology here, as I think that might be against the rules, so it's fine if he doesn't feel comfortable explaining further.

I think it's a necessary question in that line of questioning:

Atheist: Why does evil exist?
Apologist: So we are not denied our free will.
Atheist:Will evil exist in heaven?
Apologist: No.
Atheist: Will free will exist in heaven?
Apologist: Yes.
Atheist: Then why was that state of reality not created initially? It would have been preferable for both God and humanity.
Apologist: That was the initial state of humanity. God created Adam and Eve as sinless beings with free will.
Atheist: That is not the same situation because you said we won't sin in heaven, yet Adam and Eve did sin. So again, why were we not initially created in a state where we have free will and yet won't choose to sin?
Apologist: We cannot question God.
Atheist: You were fine with me questioning God; now all of a sudden when you run out of answers you say that.
Apologist: Yup.

I had the same exact discussion with her and several others. I also found the same argument on WLC's site, so I know where the script comes from. They all hit a wall when I brought up the babies though. I'm half tempted to pose the question to WLC's site too, just to see what he says.

You should post the link here.

This is actually a really watered down version of an argument I saw that said if God existed, he would only create more Gods (not little 'g') and they would only create more Gods, etc. That won't fly here though, no one will get past the idea that there can be only one God.

Christians like to believe that there can logically be only one God, but I think it's apparent - when you consider God's properties - that there can logically only be zero Gods.

1 John 4:8 is probably the basis for the idea. But it's backed up by more than that. I'll just take it as a given that the Bible makes the claim. But arguments like this attempt to show it to be false.

I forgot that was actually in there.

I can't get behind that one. I've heard it before, but I still think that if someone knows what you're going to choose, it doesn't mean you didn't choose it yourself. When it comes to God, it gets all wonky when you start thinking about Him existing outside of time itself, and that makes my head hurt.

I find the idea of free will to be nonsensical, but of course we have to suspend our disbelief for the time being. Now, let's look at this sentence:

I've heard it before, but I still think that if someone knows what you're going to choose, it doesn't mean you didn't choose it yourself.

I agree with that. If a time traveler sees me wake up to my alarm tomorrow morning at 7:00, I am bound to set my alarm to 7:00 but my free will is not being violated when I make that choice. I get that. But what if I was the time traveler? What if I saw my own future and knew that I'm supposed to set my alarm for 7:00? Can I actually choose not to? I think I'd be quite inclined to indulge in some temporal tampering and set my alarm for 6:30 just to see what happens. If I can do that, then my knowledge of the future is fallible; if I cannot do that, then my free will is violated.

Recall I said,

The thing that invalidates God's free will is his infallible and comprehensive knowledge of the future.

Now replace God with the time traveler:

The thing that invalidates the time traveler's free will is his infallible and comprehensive knowledge of his own future.

Wuuut? I'm guessing you're just being sarcastic about Heaven being illogical. The Tower of Bable is one of my favorite stories in the Bible. Did you know, that if we all work together, we can be omnipotent too? Plus it's the beginning of racism, so...

The Tower of Babel actually predicts that languages should not have any discernible common ancestor, and yet it is quite evident that languages evolve and split off over time. I wonder why there are no fundamentalists who deny the evolution of language.

Yep, it's the next step that WLC doesn't address, so the answer isn't in the script.

Again, I'd love to see you post that.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

Do people get kicked out of Heaven when they sin? The bad angels did once, but I don't know if it's continually happening. I've never heard about any people getting kicked out of Heaven, though. I've always been under the impression that if you do right on Earth, you get eternal life in Heaven. Which wouldn't be eternal if you got kicked out.

Here, I will have to defer to my belief that not everyone goes to heaven, and that the majority get back what Adam literally lost: eternal life on earth.

I too have never heard about any people getting kicked out of heaven, but I reference that some angels DID get "kicked out of heaven" as my basis for believing that those resurrected to heavenly life have as much free will as those created to always have heavenly life (the angels).

Well, it addresses angels, but they follow a different rule set than us in a lot of ways, so I wasn't sure if the same rule applied to us as them. I think I might be confused about your view of what happened in Job though. Satan already had his Fall before Job, and for a while God still let him visit, but then put a stop to that. The story of Job wasn't the Fall of Satan itself, was it?

I agree that the account isn't specifically about all of Satan's fall, but it is a window into the middle of the story, before the war with Michael and his expulsion from heaven.

Eternal life "on Earth"? I thought the Earth was eventually destroyed and people lived forever in Heaven...

A JW belief. Corresponding sacrifice (perfect man Jesus for perfect man Adam); Corresponding plan for corresponding original plan, (everlasting life on earth, multiplying and filling it, having in subjection this, that and the other).

If it means different things, then you shouldn't use the same word. Now I could understand if you were drawing a distinction between God being wholly perfect, as in perfectly good, perfectly intelligent, etc.

But if we're describing the same quality (sinlessness) and we use the same word (perfect) then we should mean exactly the same thing. That's what perfect means, 100%. Not 99.999%.

Methinks you are so caught up in semantics, that you are losing sight of the obvious. He created even the languages. You appear to be stuck on some superhuman notion of perfection not evidenced in the bible. What Adam and Eve lost was the privilege of everlasting life, and they lost for their children the benefit of an inherent tendency towards doing right, and everlasting life.

Plus, if people can still sin in Heaven, then it isn't perfect bliss for everyone. Say there's Jim and Bob in Heaven. Bob stays perfectly sinless, never does anything wrong, but Jim comes up and knocks him over the skull with a rock. Heaven isn't perfect for Bob anymore. Is Heaven not perfect either?

I don't subscribe to the notion of heaven as you describe it, either way. Are there rocks in heaven? Is there anything close to what we deal with on earth? All we have is what the bible says on the matter, and from what I personally gather, rebelliousness and envy are not something that even the angels are immune to.

 

[Moral Orel]

Recall I said,

The thing that invalidates God's free will is his infallible and comprehensive knowledge of the future.

Now replace God with the time traveler:

The thing that invalidates the time traveler's free will is his infallible and comprehensive knowledge of his own future.

I know, that's why I had to point out that God exists outside of time (somehow) and that's a defense I'm not capable of processing well. Ever tried explaining something without being able to use past or future tense? It's annoying.

The Tower of Babel actually predicts that languages should not have any discernible common ancestor, and yet it is quite evident that languages evolve and split off over time. I wonder why there are no fundamentalists who deny the evolution of language.

Meh. That'll just get spun the same way embedded age works for the Earth for YECs. I don't buy it either, but the result is predictable.

 

[Moral Orel]

Methinks you are so caught up in semantics, that you are losing sight of the obvious. He created even the languages. You appear to be stuck on some superhuman notion of perfection not evidenced in the bible. What Adam and Eve lost was the privilege of everlasting life, and they lost for their children the benefit of an inherent tendency towards doing right, and everlasting life.

It might seem like just semantics. But what I'm claiming is that God can create other beings with the same perfect nature as Himself. So if you say, "He did create perfect beings" or "we will be perfect" then we're not using the same word. When I say "perfect" I mean it in the same way that God is perfect.

Do you believe this it is impossible for God to create other beings that are perfect like Him? If so, why?

I don't subscribe to the notion of heaven as you describe it, either way. Are there rocks in heaven? Are there anything close to what we deal with on earth? All we have is what the bible says on the matter, and from what I personally gather, rebelliousness and envy are not something that even the angels are immune to.

Me neither. But since we have no idea what Heaven will really be like, I have to use things that we do understand to create a metaphor.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

It might seem like just semantics. But what I'm claiming is that God can create other beings with the same perfect nature as Himself. So if you say, "He did create perfect beings" or "we will be perfect" then we're not using the same word. When I say "perfect" I mean it in the same way that God is perfect.

Do you believe this it is impossible for God to create other beings that are perfect like Him? If so, why?

We are not God. He said to his son that they should create beings in their "image", not their exact "sameness".

Me neither. But since we have no idea what Heaven will really be like, I have to use things that we do understand to create a metaphor.

Your metaphor doesn't even use the knowledge of heaven we DO have.

 

[Moral Orel]

We are not God. He said to his son that they should create beings in their "image", not their exact "sameness".

I know we're not God. I'm not even saying we should have every quality that God has. We don't need omnipotence or omniscience.

And you use the word "should". That doesn't answer the question of capability, that implies a choice. The question is whether it is possible for God or not. Is creating other beings, similar to Him in just this manner, possible for God, or is it impossible?

Your metaphor doesn't even use the knowledge of heaven we DO have.

Well we don't know that humans can be rebellious or envious in Heaven either. You're only assuming as much because angels can. But we're not angels. On Earth we're below them, in Heaven we'll be above them. We'll even "govern" them. So assuming that we know what humans might do in Heaven based on what angels might do in Heaven is faulty logic. Apples and oranges.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

I know we're not God. I'm not even saying we should have every quality that God has. We don't need omnipotence or omniscience.

And you use the word "should". That doesn't answer the question of capability, that implies a choice. The question is whether it is possible for God or not. Is creating other beings, similar to Him in just this manner, possible for God, or is it impossible?

I keep trying to figure out why you are assuming that it would NOT be possible for God to create anything however he sees fit to create it. I think it stands to reason that he is fully capable of creating beings that can "do no wrong", at all times, in every situation. But without some kind of choice, those beings would not have free will. And if there is choice, then there is the potential for an alternate reality filled with the consequences of such choices. We have now had 6,000 plus years of such consequences. Hopefully we have learned our lesson that a certain choice is not at all beneficial to us.

Well we don't know that humans can be rebellious or envious in Heaven either. You're only assuming as much because angels can. But we're not angels. On Earth we're below them, in Heaven we'll be above them. We'll even "govern" them. So assuming that we know what humans might do in Heaven based on what angels might do in Heaven is faulty logic. Apples and oranges.

Please point out the scriptures that say that former humans will be above angels in heaven...

 

[Moral Orel]

I keep trying to figure out why you are assuming that it would NOT be possible for God to create anything however he sees fit to create it.

Because Christians keep telling me He can't because they think it is a logical contradiction. If you agree that God can create humans that have both free will and an infallible predisposition towards doing good and never doing evil, then we can move on.

Please point out the scriptures that say that former humans will be above angels in heaven...

Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! -- 1 Corinthians 6:3​