The Problem of Evil and Free Will

[Moral Orel]

I keep getting drawn into this topic in various threads that aren't quite on topic with this, so I thought I would start a new thread and open it up to the community to see if there is any other answer to The Problem of Evil other than "free will".

So basically the problem goes: "Why did God create a world that would be filled with evil?" We can call "evil" just any negative thing. Death is evil. Crime is evil. Pain is evil, etc.

The typical answer is: "He didn't, we made evil when we Fell".

Then the response to that is: "So why didn't God just make us Good from the start so that we wouldn't ever 'Fall'?"

And the typical answer is: "Because if He did that, we wouldn't have free will, and we would be nothing but puppets/robots."

If I've misrepresented either side of this argument, let me know, and I'll edit the OP to reflect it. This seems about right though.

Also, if anyone has a different answer to The Problem of Evil, feel free to argue that too. I just know that at least 90% of my answers are going to be "free will" so I'm getting out ahead of it.

So now my response is, "If always doing good means you don't have free will, then God doesn't have free will because He always does good". But maybe somehow God is an exception to the rule somehow.

So then what about once you're in Heaven? You have free will, you'll never sin again. Why not start people off that way? But maybe you need to go through a process, it can't be instantaneous.

So then what about babies that pass away? They go to Heaven without ever enduring any earthly, spiritual process. Without ever choosing to follow God here on Earth. Once there, they get the perfectly sinless nature and never do evil. They go through their entire existence without ever sinning once, but they still have free will. Of course, it would be ridiculous to think that God is incapable of letting that baby grow up in Heaven with his perfect nature in tact. Surely God isn't incapable of maturing an immature being if He can create a fully mature being from dust. So I hope no one is going to answer that babies stay babies in Heaven forever.

So, the alternate proposed process that God could follow is thus:

1. Create a being that is not mature enough to be held accountable for his choices/actions.
2. Bestow upon that being the infinitely good nature that allows it to never sin without controlling its will.
3. Mature that being into a fully mature, intelligent being that has free will but never sins.

Now honestly, it seems like I shouldn't have to go so far. God isn't omnipotent, in my opinion, if He can't just do all of this instantly. But whatever argument you have that pushes it to this point, let's just skip to here instead of dragging it out over the course of pages and pages.

Now if God followed this process, for every single being He ever created, including Satan and all the fallen angels, then the universe would have no sin in it whatsoever, and free will could still abound. Free will isn't what limits God's ability to create beings that aren't puppets/robots. So the question is, if God can avoid ever allowing evil to exist, why did He want it to exist in the first place? If anyone ever does something, it is either because they want to, or because they need to. So since God didn't need to create evil (albeit indirectly) why did He want to create evil (again, indirectly)?

 

[bling]

If a person, including yourself at this time, is in a middle of a tragedy it is not the right time to be philosophical about tragedies, since Loving, serving, helping listening and spending time with the person is what’s needed.

Do not read further if this is the case and lets us work in Love on getting you through this tragedy.


We all look forward to being in heaven where there is no needy people, no sorrow, no death, and no sin.

This earth is not to be heaven, if we did not need this earth to be the way it is, we could all start out in heaven.

I have experienced the loss of a baby, but I will not say I know what other parent went through.

Is death bad in and of itself?

The same situation which strengths a person faith, will harden another person’s heart, so should God stop providing the message and/or the situation which will soften the accepting heart?


This world is full of tragedies, which can also be viewed as opportunities to help humans fulfill their earthly objective.

We have an earthly objective.


You do ask lots of good question that everyone asks sometime in their life, so God addresses this question first off with the story of Adam and Eve the third chapter of the book. Adam and Eve had the world you might think you want.


The story of Adam and Eve (Gen 3)(you do not have to believe it is true to get the message) is told very early, because all individuals ask the question: “Why would a truly Loving God not put us all in a Garden type situation?” The story of A&E explains why we are in our situation:

1. God desires is that we all be in a Garden type situation, but God quenches His own desire to provide a better situation for us to fulfill our earthly objective.
   
   
2. Our earthly object is not to “worship God”, “to never/ever sin”, run around free, just don’t sin, or be good. God does not need anything from us, but is just trying to give something to us. God is trying to give us the greatest power in all universes; the power that compels God to do all He does, but that power cannot be forced on us (take it or I torture you) or can it be instinctive to man (robotically programmed in humans). It is a gift from God that is totally undeserved and unconditional (so it is Charity), but man has to accept the gift as it was given. Humans, instinctive to survival, (which is good for man to have) does not help an individual to want to take charity especially if it comes at a huge cost to the giver.
   
   
3. The gift is Godly type Love which is best defined by Christ’s words and deeds. God will do all he can to help those that are willing to accept His help, fulfill their earthly objective of accepting His Love and growing that Love. Included in “all that God will do and allow to happen” are: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, sin, hell and tragedies of all kinds.
   
   
4. First off; death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff, so death is not “bad” in and of itself.
   
   
5. It is truly unfortunate and not God’s desire that tragedies have to occur. God has to quench His desire to allow tragedies, for man’s sake to help humans accept Love. People have to see, experience, witness, receive and even give Godly type Love, before they will even understand and desire such a Love. Some even after receiving Godly type Love from an individual just like themselves will not want it or explain it away (justifying in their own mind: the person is just trying to gain respect or earn their way to heaven or they are making up for the bad they have done).
   
   
6. Everyone on earth is needy, because everyone has hurt others (sinned) and should feel the burden of the sin at least for a while. Their creator is trying to give them Love in the form of forgiveness so they will Love (the Bible and life teach us: “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”) If we realize and except forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by our sins, we will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) that is truly ours.
   
   
7. There are a huge amount of sever tragedies in this world, but they are really opportunities for good people to show, give, experience, grow and witness Godly type Love. With all those tragedies some good people are still not responding, so are more needed? It is not our job to provide tragedies, but to solve, reduce, eliminate all we can, by allowing the Spirit to work through us.
   
   
8. Scripture tells us the needy will be with us always on this earth. Christ did not “heal” all those that were sick, but used those tragedies around Him to express Godly Love and show us how we are to handle tragedies (serve others with Love). Healing everyone without the witness of Godly type Love being seen in serving individual like any other person would not get other people to accept God’s Love in faith and humility, but we could grow from the experience.
   
   
9. This world is not our Home and our rest comes later. It is both a privilege and Honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in serving others in this world to best help everyone around us to accept God’s Love (fulfill their objective).
   
   
10. If you had to find the most Christ Like person in the world today, where would you look?
    

I see Jesus explaining it in John 9: 1-7.

In John 9: 1-7 you have a tragedy (the apostles are asking about a specific tragedy, but they do not know this individual and are thinking in general terms [you need to get into their head]).

Jesus does not say: “this tragedy was caused by: Adam/Eve sinning, Satan, sin, bad luck, God or evil in the world (those have been our answers).”

Jesus does not say: “It was because of the bad that happened”, but does say: “This is for the good that can (and in this case will) happen.”

If you have lived for very long, you have seen good come from some tragedies, but why not all tragedies?

Is someone keeping good from coming from every tragedy?

Everything that is happening in the world right now (disease, natural disasters, and tragedies of all kinds) are not the result of the bad that has happened (or Adam and Eve), but is the result of the GOOD that can happen!

God is quenching His desire to have us all in a Garden type situation to help us fulfill our objective.

Everything starts and ends with the objective;


The objective of humans is to: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others.” The definition of “Love” is key for it is not instinctive or just emotional but it is Love of your enemies, described by Jesus’ life and Paul in 1 Cor. 13 and by John. It requires a free will moral decision to Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season). The fall was tragic and not God’s desire, but may have been both inevitable and necessary. For all humans since the fall that have come to Love God started out by accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

Needy people create opportunities to experience, see, accept, express and receive Godly type Love. Everyone needs the full opportunity to accept Godly type Love which may have to be done when the person reaches the bottom like the prodigal son.

The innocent that died as the result of God’s action may not really suffer as far as we know.

There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit:

1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self-reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being perceived independent to being dependent on God.

2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.

3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.

4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.

Did Adam and Eve have faith? Did the Jews that crossed the Red Sea have faith? Is faith needed in heaven? Is our faith the determining factor to our salvation?

 

[Moral Orel]

If a person, including yourself at this time, is in a middle of a tragedy it is not the right time to be philosophical about tragedies, since Loving, serving, helping listening and spending time with the person is what’s needed.

Do not read further if this is the case and lets us work in Love on getting you through this tragedy.

No, I have not had any tragedy in my life, and I am sorry that you have. It can be a sensitive subject to talk about the passing of a child, and I mean no offense or harm by bringing it up. I mention it only as an illustration that all the good things that God promises to come, and all the changes He can make in us do not require living on Earth for any extended amount of time, nor does it require some choice on our part to accept the gifts, nor does it require us to experience any kind of pain and suffering to appreciate it.

That being said, does that have an impact on what you said about Godly love and what is necessary for us to receive it? I understand that it is given by grace, but we don't have to make a choice to receive it. And does that have any impact on the rest of what you posted if what you said was based on the idea that we must choose God?

I understand the current system that is in place. What I am asking about is a different system. The Earth isn't necessary to bestow on us all the positive personality traits like humility, that you mentioned. My illustration shows that the exception can become the rule, and the end result of God's plan can be achieved without pain and suffering of any kind ever existing.

 

[danny ski]

Gd did create evil. He said that through the prophet outright. As for free will, it goes to the core of the purpose of creation. I believe that an omnipotent being bent on creating a sentient being must endow it with free will. Otherwise, it's just creating a pet.

 

[Moral Orel]

Gd did create evil. He said that through the prophet outright.

I know, but I've had a lot of people say that when God says "I created evil" He doesn't mean it like I take it.

As for free will, it goes to the core of the purpose of creation. I believe that an omnipotent being bent on creating a sentient being must endow it with free will. Otherwise, it's just creating a pet.

Okay, but God has free will, but He can't do evil, so evil doesn't have to exist for free will to exist. God's created sentient free-will beings can just be "smart" enough (for lack of a better word) to never choose evil.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

So now my response is, "If always doing good means you don't have free will, then God doesn't have free will because He always does good". But maybe somehow God is an exception to the rule somehow.

I'm a little lost how you formed this thought. Why would always doing good mean that you don't have free will? Adam and Eve were fully capable of choosing to always do good, as Jesus showed through his example as a man.

God is on a whole other plane, and simply IS good, through and through, so his course isn't a matter of choice or free will, it is a permanent state of being.

So then what about once you're in Heaven? You have free will, you'll never sin again. Why not start people off that way? But maybe you need to go through a process, it can't be instantaneous.

God DID start people (and angels) off that way. But as the fall of the angels shows, even perfection doesn't eliminate free will. If perfectly created angels can fall, then the perfected resurrected could also fall - at least that's the way I see it. I don't think we are ever completely free from the potential dangers of free will if we do not guard against them, but choosing the good will come easier in that state than in our current.

Now if God followed this process, for every single being He ever created, including Satan and all the fallen angels, then the universe would have no sin in it whatsoever, and free will could still abound. Free will isn't what limits God's ability to create beings that aren't puppets/robots. So the question is, if God can avoid ever allowing evil to exist, why did He want it to exist in the first place? If anyone ever does something, it is either because they want to, or because they need to. So since God didn't need to create evil (albeit indirectly) why did He want to create evil (again, indirectly)?

So are you saying that God could have allowed free will without there being evil, so why did he allow (create) evil? But as you said, "evil" isn't any one thing. It is a culmination of negatives directly stemming from not following his instructions.

 

[Moral Orel]

God DID start people (and angels) off that way. But as the fall of the angels shows, even perfection doesn't eliminate free will. If perfectly created angels can fall, then the perfected resurrected could also fall - at least that's the way I see it. I don't think we are ever completely free from the potential dangers of free will if we do not guard against them, but choosing the good will come easier in that state than in our current.

Now that is a unique answer! People still sin in Heaven? Do they get kicked out? What about angels? Are they still sinning and getting thrown out from time to time? Writing this, it feels like my tone might come off as sarcastic, but I honestly don't mean to. I've never heard this before, and I'm genuinely fascinated. I've always been under the impression that there's absolutely no sin or negativity in Heaven whatsoever. Heaven doesn't sound perfect anymore...

But more to the point, do you think God is incapable of designing a creature so perfect, that even though they are capable of doing evil, they would never choose to? Or do you think that is impossible?

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

Now that is a unique answer! People still sin in Heaven? Do they get kicked out? What about angels? Are they still sinning and getting thrown out from time to time? Writing this, it feels like my tone might come off as sarcastic, but I honestly don't mean to. I've never heard this before, and I'm genuinely fascinated. I've always been under the impression that there's absolutely no sin or negativity in Heaven whatsoever. Heaven doesn't sound perfect anymore...

But more to the point, do you think God is incapable of designing a creature so perfect, that even though they are capable of doing evil, they would never choose to? Or do you think that is impossible?

If you're at all familiar with the bible, God set a plan into motion after Adam and Eve sinned to redeem what they lost for us. What did they lose? Perfection and everlasting life. Once God's plans are fulfilled, we will have those things back, but we will also still retain free will, and thus, the potential to mess things up for ourselves. What will be the result for those who choose disobedience then, in the post-redemption-plan days? The book of Revelation tells us of the second-death - the one there is no coming back from. That will be their fate.

I've tried to be generic in that description, because I have a feeling that I'm not supposed to discuss my specific theology on this thread. You can decide what "perfection and everlasting life" means to you

If you read the book of Job, we are given a glimpse of Heaven and how Satan interacted with God in the days before he was thrown out with the other rebellious angels. I think that account will help you see that free will exists in Heaven too, and that there are consequences for rebellious angels, just as there are consequences for rebellious people.

I do understand the point you are trying to make: that God *ought* to be "capable" of creating a creature that would never choose do wrong. My answer and conviction is: of course he is! Jesus was perfect before he came and proved perfect as a man, all the while having free will. He chose to do no wrong, though he was capable of doing a great deal of it. He is our model. We imperfectly attempt daily to follow his example, until such time that we are granted perfection and will be capable of doing so much better.

I know that it can be hard to see the love God shows us by allowing us free will while we are still enduring such an evil world, but he wants us to want him, not out of compulsion, but out of returned love.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

But more to the point, do you think God is incapable of designing a creature so perfect, that even though they are capable of doing evil, they would never choose to? Or do you think that is impossible?

I just realized that I may have gotten too specific with my views of Jesus there. In any case, you can still learn from his obedience when he was tempted by Satan while he was fasting. And, you can learn from the remaining angels in heaven, who were created perfect. The bible alludes (Rev 12:4-9) that a 1/3 of the angels were cast down with Satan, but that means that 2/3 remained loyal and sin free.

 

[danny ski]

I know, but I've had a lot of people say that when God says "I created evil" He doesn't mean it like I take it.

Okay, but God has free will, but He can't do evil, so evil doesn't have to exist for free will to exist. God's created sentient free-will beings can just be "smart" enough (for lack of a better word) to never choose evil.

Free will, by its definition, is a 100% thing. You either have it or you don't. So, I don't agree with the smart enough option. As for what people say about Gd creating evil, it's an attempt to limit sovereign Gd who is responsible for everything -- unwillingness to accept reality of the text.

 

[Moral Orel]

I do understand the point you are trying to make: that God *ought* to be "capable" of creating a creature that would never choose do wrong. My answer and conviction is: of course he is! Jesus was perfect before he came and proved perfect as a man, all the while having free will. He chose to do no wrong, though he was capable of doing a great deal of it. He is our model. We imperfectly attempt daily to follow his example, until such time that we are granted perfection and will be capable of doing so much better.

I know that it can be hard to see the love God shows us by allowing us free will while we are still enduring such an evil world, but he wants us to want him, not out of compulsion, but out of returned love.

Jesus is a tricky example to use, because He is God too, so it's hard to say a human existed that was incapable of doing evil. But if we're considering that Jesus' totally human side had no chance of doing evil, not that He couldn't but that we are certain He wouldn't choose to, then was that totally human side compelled to love God, or did He do it of His own free will?

 

[Moral Orel]

Free will, by its definition, is a 100% thing. You either have it or you don't. So, I don't agree with the smart enough option. As for what people say about Gd creating evil, it's an attempt to limit sovereign Gd who is responsible for everything -- unwillingness to accept reality of the text.

I may need a bit of a reference point to understand your position since you aren't Christian. Do people in Heaven have a 0% chance of ever sinning? If so, does that mean that they gave up their free will?

And to the second part, considering God's sovereignty, is God capable of doing an evil deed, or can nothing God does be considered evil because He is sovereign? I'm trying to remember the "God can'ts" from the Bible and where they are. God can't lie, and God can't deny Himself, those are both OT, right? If that's less than 100%, does God still have free will?

 

[danny ski]

I may need a bit of a reference point to understand your position since you aren't Christian. Do people in Heaven have a 0% chance of ever sinning? If so, does that mean that they gave up their free will?

And to the second part, considering God's sovereignty, is God capable of doing an evil deed, or can nothing God does be considered evil because He is sovereign? I'm trying to remember the "God can'ts" from the Bible and where they are. God can't lie, and God can't deny Himself, those are both OT, right? If that's less than 100%, does God still have free will?

I don't think Gd can't lie. As any being with free will he chooses not to. As a supreme, spiritual being He has no need nor inclination to deceive. As for heaven, fallen angels, hell, etc. I don't really believe that stuff. It's a much later development and not really important in my belief system.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

Jesus is a tricky example to use, because He is God too, so it's hard to say a human existed that was incapable of doing evil. But if we're considering that Jesus' totally human side had no chance of doing evil, not that He couldn't but that we are certain He wouldn't choose to, then was that totally human side compelled to love God, or did He do it of His own free will?

JWs (as I am) don't believe that Jesus is God, so that's why I had to rethink my example to you. His example makes sense to me in light of your question, but not so much to those who believe the trinity.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it is possible to separate free will from the equation. We are his creation, but what is the satisfaction in having a people worship you because they have no concept of or ability to do anything else?

I have an adult child that I sometimes wish I had the ability to force to do what I know would be in her best interest. But then, she wouldn't be her anymore and she'd resent me for trying to impose my will on her life. So, I'm here when she needs me and pray for her to get it together one day before it's too late.

 

[Moral Orel]

JWs (as I am) don't believe that Jesus is God, so that's why I had to rethink my example to you. His example makes sense to me in light of your question, but not so much to those who believe the trinity.

Well then He's a perfect example for what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to remove free will from people, I'm trying to remove free will from the argument. If Jesus had free will, but there was 0% chance of Him sinning, then people can have free will, and have 0% chance of sinning. There's something else to it that causes people to sin rather than just the choice of doing it or not.

 

[Moral Orel]

As a supreme, spiritual being He has no need nor inclination to deceive.

There it is! "Inclination". If we had no "inclination" to sin, we would lack free will?

 

[danny ski]

There it is! "Inclination". If we had no "inclination" to sin, we would lack free will?

Not necessarily. The Bible teaches that man has an inclination to sin from youth. But, and it's a big one. It also teaches that we have the power to rule over sin. Therefore, inclination or no inclination, it always comes down to choice. We are righteous or not by the gift of free will.

 

[toLiJC]

I keep getting drawn into this topic in various threads that aren't quite on topic with this, so I thought I would start a new thread and open it up to the community to see if there is any other answer to The Problem of Evil other than "free will".

So basically the problem goes: "Why did God create a world that would be filled with evil?" We can call "evil" just any negative thing. Death is evil. Crime is evil. Pain is evil, etc.

The typical answer is: "He didn't, we made evil when we Fell".

Then the response to that is: "So why didn't God just make us Good from the start so that we wouldn't ever 'Fall'?"

And the typical answer is: "Because if He did that, we wouldn't have free will, and we would be nothing but puppets/robots."

If I've misrepresented either side of this argument, let me know, and I'll edit the OP to reflect it. This seems about right though.

Also, if anyone has a different answer to The Problem of Evil, feel free to argue that too. I just know that at least 90% of my answers are going to be "free will" so I'm getting out ahead of it.

So now my response is, "If always doing good means you don't have free will, then God doesn't have free will because He always does good". But maybe somehow God is an exception to the rule somehow.

So then what about once you're in Heaven? You have free will, you'll never sin again. Why not start people off that way? But maybe you need to go through a process, it can't be instantaneous.

So then what about babies that pass away? They go to Heaven without ever enduring any earthly, spiritual process. Without ever choosing to follow God here on Earth. Once there, they get the perfectly sinless nature and never do evil. They go through their entire existence without ever sinning once, but they still have free will. Of course, it would be ridiculous to think that God is incapable of letting that baby grow up in Heaven with his perfect nature in tact. Surely God isn't incapable of maturing an immature being if He can create a fully mature being from dust. So I hope no one is going to answer that babies stay babies in Heaven forever.

So, the alternate proposed process that God could follow is thus:

1. Create a being that is not mature enough to be held accountable for his choices/actions.
2. Bestow upon that being the infinitely good nature that allows it to never sin without controlling its will.
3. Mature that being into a fully mature, intelligent being that has free will but never sins.

Now honestly, it seems like I shouldn't have to go so far. God isn't omnipotent, in my opinion, if He can't just do all of this instantly. But whatever argument you have that pushes it to this point, let's just skip to here instead of dragging it out over the course of pages and pages.

Now if God followed this process, for every single being He ever created, including Satan and all the fallen angels, then the universe would have no sin in it whatsoever, and free will could still abound. Free will isn't what limits God's ability to create beings that aren't puppets/robots. So the question is, if God can avoid ever allowing evil to exist, why did He want it to exist in the first place? If anyone ever does something, it is either because they want to, or because they need to. So since God didn't need to create evil (albeit indirectly) why did He want to create evil (again, indirectly)?

God never created evil, the "darkness" is indefinitely existing and self-manifested, remember that it is written in Genesis 1:1-2 how the "darkness" was already in the universe after God made His first creations the "heaven" and the "earth", so not that He ever created evil, but He has been kind of compelled to endure the claims of the "darkness" to reign over the souls, because it is indefinitely existing and can't be destroyed for all the time's infinity, therefore He has to suffer its manifestation for the first 5-6 millennia of the eternity

Blessings

 

[Moral Orel]

God never created evil, the "darkness" is indefinitely existing and self-manifested, remember that it is written in Genesis 1:1-2 how the "darkness" was already in the universe after God made His first creations the "heaven" and the "earth", so not that He ever created evil, but He has been kind of compelled to endure the claims of the "darkness" to reign over the souls, because it is indefinitely existing and can't be destroyed for all the time's infinity, therefore He has to suffer its manifestation for the first 5-6 millennia of the eternity

Blessings

I believe Danny and I are talking about Isaiah 45:7.

 

[toLiJC]

I believe Danny and I are talking about Isaiah 45:7.

what about Isaiah 45:7?!

Blessings