The Problem of Evil and Free Will

[Moral Orel]

To simplify the answer for better understanding, God can foresee the future such that whoever sinning in heaven would have been removed when they were still on earth.

That's strange. Isn't getting into Heaven supposed to based on what you do/feel/believe here on Earth? If you do everything right, and honestly have the right attitudes and emotions here on Earth that you're supposed to, you're supposed to go to Heaven. But if in a quadrillion years, your attitude would change, you don't get in?

The end result is that humans in heaven won't sin. At the same time and in a sense, their degree of freewill is openly measurable. If on the other hand, God makes only entities with freewill without sinning, the degree of freewill is not measurable by anyone else but God Himself. That is, whether humans are truly with freewill can hardly be told with reference and under open witnessing, that is, you won't be able to tell if they can choose to sin.

We could still measure our free will. We could still imagine someone doing something wrong, we just wouldn't ever see it happen. For instance, we could imagine someone stealing. The concept of taking something that doesn't belong to them, but there simply wouldn't be instances of it happening. We would always be able to say to ourselves, "I could steal, I just don't have any desire to".

To put it anther way, God just let go everything as it is such that those choosing 0 will choose 0 and those choosing 1 will choose one, with their freewill expressed openly under open witnessing, such that the righteous (i.e., those choose 0) can be legitimately/lawfully brought to heaven with a said standard (made known to angels and humans).

Well that just depends on what the standard is. How about this standard: "Anyone who has never sinned their whole life goes to Heaven"? Then, if everyone had this perfectly good nature, everyone would go to Heaven, and everyone would legitimately deserve to be there. This is going to sound terrible, but why does God deserve to be in Heaven? I'm not saying He doesn't. But, He doesn't deserve it because He earned it. He deserves it just because that's who He is. If that's just who we always were, we would legitimately/lawfully deserve it in the same way.

 

[bling]

That's kind of weird. Infants have to stay infants forever in Heaven?

I did not say “infants remain infants in heaven”. They can be given everything others are given that go to heaven, the issue is heaven is not a place where you can obtain Godly type love for yourself, but can be extended that love by others in heaven.

Godly type Love has to be the result of a real choice (having likely alternatives). On earth we have the choice of accepting or rejecting God’s Charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness), we can reject His Love out of pride and/or seeking the perceived pleasures of sin, but in heaven that option is not given. Those there without Godly type love are not really “choosing” to accept the Love with another likely alternative.

Then we still need to get back to this though:

Is this "love" instinctively part of God? This "love" is just part of His nature, does that make it robotic love?

God’s Love is not a knee jerk reaction that He just automatically does, but He Loves out of His choice to Love. The huge sacrifices God has made in order to provide some humans with this same Love, is not justified by “logic”, but that is what God choose to do.

 

[Fizzywig]

I did not say “infants remain infants in heaven”. They can be given everything others are given that go to heaven, the issue is heaven is not a place where you can obtain Godly type love for yourself, but can be extended that love by others in heaven.

Godly type Love has to be the result of a real choice (having likely alternatives). On earth we have the choice of accepting or rejecting God’s Charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness), we can reject His Love out of pride and/or seeking the perceived pleasures of sin, but in heaven that option is not given. Those there without Godly type love are not really “choosing” to accept the Love with another likely alternative.



God’s Love is not a knee jerk reaction that He just automatically does, but He Loves out of His choice to Love. The huge sacrifices God has made in order to provide some humans with this same Love, is not justified by “logic”, but that is what God choose to do.

You claim that all the above is what God chose to do. It seems more your attempt to make sense of the Bible. In doing so I see only incoherence.

In your scenario free will is all important, yet its sole existence is for "three score years and ten" and only the choice to believe in the Biblical God has any signifcance. Then, only the consequences of such a choice are pertinent - this perpetually, for all eternity!

Then we have those who were never able to exercise free will at all apparently existing in a second best state forever.

All this the creation of an omnipotent God!

Bling, there really is better than this in the world of spirituality.

 

[bling]

You claim that all the above is what God chose to do. It seems more your attempt to make sense of the Bible. In doing so I see only incoherence.

In your scenario free will is all important, yet its sole existence is for "three score years and ten" and only the choice to believe in the Biblical God has any signifcance. Then, only the consequences of such a choice are pertinent - this perpetually, for all eternity!

Then we have those who were never able to exercise free will at all apparently existing in a second best state forever.

All this the creation of an omnipotent God!

Bling, there really is better than this in the world of spirituality.

Those that never had the chance to accept or reject God’s Love are really not addressed in scripture, so yes my explanation comes from a personal understanding of God and His Love.

“free will” is important to obtain Godly type Love and to maintain Godly type Love.

It is not for our acknowledging the existence of the Biblical God, but to obtain Godly type Love through the acceptance a God’s forgiveness. I feel a person could turn to whom they see as the their Creator seeking His help (Love/forgiveness) and God would help/Love them, this could happen with the burden created in their minds by past decisions that have hurt others (sin).

It is partly my fault there will be those that exist in heaven in the state of not having Godly type love, but I hope to care for them throughout eternity. But realize this those with Godly type love will just be loving those without Godly type love more than those without can love them back, so is there a winner and loser?

The greatest “gift” God could give would be this Godly type love, which makes us like God Himself. Godly type Love compels God to do all He does, so in a way it is the most powerful force in all universes. The fact that some “suffer” and others live eternally without Godly type Love of their own does show the tremendous cost in providing some with Godly type love, so is the cost to high?

 

[Chriliman]

Well that just depends on what the standard is. How about this standard: "Anyone who has never sinned their whole life goes to Heaven"?

There is one who had this perfectly good nature and his name is Jesus. Even though he was and is perfect(Does the will of God and never sinned), he chose to die in order to save those who have and do sin from the consequences of sin, which is separation from God and from life, forever. Essentially, God came to us in the form of a man in order to save us from our sins and reunite us to Himself. This is the perfect love of God.

Then, if everyone had this perfectly good nature, everyone would go to Heaven, and everyone would legitimately deserve to be there. This is going to sound terrible, but why does God deserve to be in Heaven? I'm not saying He doesn't. But, He doesn't deserve it because He earned it. He deserves it just because that's who He is. If that's just who we always were, we would legitimately/lawfully deserve it in the same way.

If you accept what Jesus has done to save you from separation from God, then you will gain new life here and now and inherit everlasting life on a new everlasting earth, which is yet to come.

Hope this helps you in your search for truth and understanding.

God bless!

 

[Fizzywig]

Those that never had the chance to accept or reject God’s Love are really not addressed in scripture, so yes my explanation comes from a personal understanding of God and His Love.

“free will” is important to obtain Godly type Love and to maintain Godly type Love.

It is not for our acknowledging the existence of the Biblical God, but to obtain Godly type Love through the acceptance a God’s forgiveness. I feel a person could turn to whom they see as the their Creator seeking His help (Love/forgiveness) and God would help/Love them, this could happen with the burden created in their minds by past decisions that have hurt others (sin).

It is partly my fault there will be those that exist in heaven in the state of not having Godly type love, but I hope to care for them throughout eternity. But realize this those with Godly type love will just be loving those without Godly type love more than those without can love them back, so is there a winner and loser?

The greatest “gift” God could give would be this Godly type love, which makes us like God Himself. Godly type Love compels God to do all He does, so in a way it is the most powerful force in all universes. The fact that some “suffer” and others live eternally without Godly type Love of their own does show the tremendous cost in providing some with Godly type love, so is the cost to high?

Thanks. I think we have gone through all this on another thread. (i.e. "What is my Responsibiity" on the World Religions sub-section)

There seems no point in repeating the exchange.

EDIT:- I was unclear. In saying the "choice to believe in the Biblical God" I was including all the theological fine print regarding "repentance" etc etc.

 

[zippy2006]

So, the alternate proposed process that God could follow is thus:

1. Create a being that is not mature enough to be held accountable for his choices/actions.
2. Bestow upon that being the infinitely good nature that allows it to never sin without controlling its will.
3. Mature that being into a fully mature, intelligent being that has free will but never sins.

A few posts that help clear up this topic can be found here and here/here.

The crucial point is this: what did God want? Sinless beings, or beings that partake in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)? The Bible indicates the latter, which means that the beings God created needed to be free to enter into a covenant relationship with Him. If they are free to choose, then they must also be free to not-choose.

It is also perhaps worthwhile to note that Christians believe that God will bring good out of the evil he allows such that a universe with evil will be, in the end, better than a universe without evil. You seem to overlook the point that an omnipotent being that can make use of evil to bring about a greater good is greater than an omnipotent being that walls out evil entirely.

 

[Moral Orel]

A few posts that help clear up this topic can be found here and here/here.

The crucial point is this: what did God want? Sinless beings, or beings that partake in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)? The Bible indicates the latter, which means that the beings God created needed to be free to enter into a covenant relationship with Him. If they are free to choose, then they must also be free to not-choose.

It is also perhaps worthwhile to note that Christians believe that God will bring good out of the evil he allows such that a universe with evil will be, in the end, better than a universe without evil. You seem to overlook the point that an omnipotent being that can make use of evil to bring about a greater good is greater than an omnipotent being that walls out evil entirely.

You and everyone else that has replied talks about free will in such a way that it would mean God does not have free will. If you don't believe that a being can exist that is capable of choosing evil, but never will (guaranteed) then I don't know what to tell you about what you must think of God. The point of this thread is to show that God can and does make people be just like Him without ever making the choice of "entering a covenant" with Him.

So first understand that we agree on the very premise of what I've stated: a being can exist that has free will but will never choose to do evil. If you do not agree with this, then God does not have free will. If you do agree with this, then humans (and angels) could have been made in such a way that evil never would have come into existence.

So do you agree? Can a being have free will but still have such a nature that they will never choose to do evil, guaranteed? I bolded it because a direct answer to this question is very important to the conversation.

As to the second part, maybe. That would be the answer to the problem of evil, which you're free to attempt to answer. I'm showing that free will is not the answer. Since free will and an infinitely good nature are not mutually exclusive, what is the answer to the problem of evil?

 

[Hawkins]

That's strange. Isn't getting into Heaven supposed to based on what you do/feel/believe here on Earth?

Everyone is like being attractive firmly by a magnet without exception. This magnet is called Satan. Only God is capable of redemption. Your belief is just your part of effort, you won't make it without the part played by God.

That's why it is said that everyone is invited but not everyone is chosen.

It's strange because we can only comprehend using a human perspective.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Now if God followed this process, for every single being He ever created, including Satan and all the fallen angels, then the universe would have no sin in it whatsoever, and free will could still abound. Free will isn't what limits God's ability to create beings that aren't puppets/robots. So the question is, if God can avoid ever allowing evil to exist, why did He want it to exist in the first place? If anyone ever does something, it is either because they want to, or because they need to. So since God didn't need to create evil (albeit indirectly) why did He want to create evil (again, indirectly)?



I think you are asking God to do something that is impossible. God can only do what is possible. It is a common mistake for people to think God can do impossible things. I don't know how you conclude that God wants evil to exist because in your mind he has the ability to avoid it existing. God is not the author of evil but the devil is. You have to ask yourself who commited the first sin God or satan? Certainly wasn't God and satan was before adam and eve therefore it was satan who sinned first who led the rebellion against God. Who has caused and created all this suffering and evil you see before your very eyes. Stop blaming God for something he allowed to happen because it was the only way he could have a family. If there was a better way for God to have children he wouldve done it that way. Gods heart is so big that he wants as many people in his family as possible including you, who reject him and blame him for evil things that he did not do.

 

[Moral Orel]

I think you are asking God to do something that is impossible.

What's impossible? Sure, a square circle is impossible. A being that has free will and never does evil isn't impossible. I've showed a bunch of examples of beings that are exactly that as well. So I don't know what you think is impossible.

Stop blaming God for something he allowed to happen because it was the only way he could have a family.

It's not the only way, and that's the point.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

What's impossible? Sure, a square circle is impossible. A being that has free will and never does evil isn't impossible. I've showed a bunch of examples of beings that are exactly that as well. So I don't know what you think is impossible.


It's not the only way, and that's the point.

Are you familiar with open theism? I think if you are unsatisfied with what you are getting from the closed view that you will be satisfied with the open view of theism which I am finding more compelling each day.

What is the “Open View” of God?
1.
The name “Open View” was coined because the future is “
open,” it is uncreated and not
known.
2.
The “open view” of God is that God knows everything that is knowable, but does not
have exhaustive foreknowledge; i.e., perfect and complete foreknowledge of everything
that will happen in the future.
3.
God does absolut
ely know everything that is knowable, i.e., every past event.
Furthermore, He knows every factor in play and every line of cause and effect, so He has
tremendous predictive capacity and can predict the future with incredible accuracy, but
He does not absol
utely know the future. Hebrews says God knows everything knowable.
Hebrews 4:13
Nothing in all creation is hidden
from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and
laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
4.
The Open View asserts that the
passage of what we call “time” creates new realities
every second, and those realities are not perfectly foreknown by God.
5.
God can predict the future, and our future is certain and secure, not because God “knows”
what will happen, but because God is power
ful and can make things happen.
6.
When God created the universe and freewill beings, He
follows the rules that He Himself
set and became subject to them.
For example, when God said He did not lie then He
became subject to that promise.

 

[Moral Orel]

Are you familiar with open theism? I think if you are unsatisfied with what you are getting from the closed view that you will be satisfied with the open view of theism which I am finding more compelling each day.

What is the “Open View” of God?
1.
The name “Open View” was coined because the future is “
open,” it is uncreated and not
known.
2.
The “open view” of God is that God knows everything that is knowable, but does not
have exhaustive foreknowledge; i.e., perfect and complete foreknowledge of everything
that will happen in the future.
3.
God does absolut
ely know everything that is knowable, i.e., every past event.
Furthermore, He knows every factor in play and every line of cause and effect, so He has
tremendous predictive capacity and can predict the future with incredible accuracy, but
He does not absol
utely know the future. Hebrews says God knows everything knowable.
Hebrews 4:13
Nothing in all creation is hidden
from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and
laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
4.
The Open View asserts that the
passage of what we call “time” creates new realities
every second, and those realities are not perfectly foreknown by God.
5.
God can predict the future, and our future is certain and secure, not because God “knows”
what will happen, but because God is power
ful and can make things happen.

It doesn't matter how much God knows about the future. Either He knew that we would sin and do evil things to each other, or He knew it might happen. If He made all the sentient beings differently from the start, He could have known that none of them would ever choose to do evil. Or does God not know if even He will ever choose to be evil in the future?

When God created the universe and freewill beings, He
follows the rules that He Himself
set and became subject to them.
For example, when God said He did not lie then He
became subject to that promise.

Of course, and He follows them perfectly. There is no chance that He will misstep and break one of those rules. Yet He still has free will and isn't simply a robot driven by His nature. Therefore all the other sentient beings in existence can be made in the same way. We too could be made in such a way that we will never misstep and yet still retain our free will. If you think that would make us robots, then God is a robot. I don't think God is a robot, and I don't think that would make us robots.

 

[Moral Orel]

Everyone is like being attractive firmly by a magnet without exception. This magnet is called Satan. Only God is capable of redemption. Your belief is just your part of effort, you won't make it without the part played by God.

That's why it is said that everyone is invited but not everyone is chosen.

It's strange because we can only comprehend using a human perspective.

Okay, but if a person believes in God, follows all the rules in the Bible, loves God, Loves his neighbors, and confesses and repents whenever he makes a mistake, that person goes to Heaven, right? What if a quadrillion years from now, in Heaven, that person will sin? Does God not let that person in even though He did and felt everything right on Earth before he died?

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

It doesn't matter how much God knows about the future. Either He knew that we would sin and do evil things to each other, or He knew it might happen. If He made all the sentient beings differently from the start, He could have known that none of them would ever choose to do evil. Or does God not know if even He will ever choose to be evil in the future?

Of course, and He follows them perfectly. There is no chance that He will misstep and break one of those rules. Yet He still has free will and isn't simply a robot driven by His nature. Therefore all the other sentient beings in existence can be made in the same way. We too could be made in such a way that we will never misstep and yet still retain our free will. If you think that would make us robots, then God is a robot. I don't think God is a robot, and I don't think that would make us robots.

You basically are asking well why didn't God create duplicates of himself. And that makes no sense. Why would God do that?

 

[Moral Orel]

You basically are asking well why didn't God create duplicates of himself. And that makes no sense. Why would God do that?

Why? So that evil wouldn't exist. Since that is claimed to be the ultimate goal, I'm showing that it never needed to exist in the first place. If the ultimate goal is to have there be no evil in the universe anymore, then wouldn't an omnibenevolent God do all that He could to eradicate evil?

Now the original argument goes that He couldn't do away with all evil without doing away with free will, and free will is important, I agree. But since I've shown that free will can exist without evil ever existing, the question remains, why does God want evil to exist? What purpose does it serve?

 

[Chriliman]

Why? So that evil wouldn't exist. Since that is claimed to be the ultimate goal, I'm showing that it never needed to exist in the first place. If the ultimate goal is to have there be no evil in the universe anymore, then wouldn't an omnibenevolent God do all that He could to eradicate evil?

Now the original argument goes that He couldn't do away with all evil without doing away with free will, and free will is important, I agree. But since I've shown that free will can exist without evil ever existing, the question remains, why does God want evil to exist? What purpose does it serve?

When God creates free willed beings, it means he's created them to have the ability to listen and do what He says or not. The 'or not' part is when they choose not to do what God says to do and commit sin/evil.

God is omnibenevolent and omniscient, but not necessarily omnipotent because he will not do something evil, he will only do what is good. However, he does know what evil is and how to remove it from His creation because he is omniscient and removing evil/sin from creation is an omnibenevolent thing to do.

So it follows that a free willed, omnibenevolent, omniscient God can either:

A. Choose to create free willed beings because His omniscience knows the end result is good.

B. Choose not to create free willed beings because His omniscience knows the end result is evil.

If an omnibenevolent, omniscient God exists then (A) is the only logical answer because we are then created beings in creation, which means God knows what he's doing and the end result will be good.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Why? So that evil wouldn't exist. Since that is claimed to be the ultimate goal, I'm showing that it never needed to exist in the first place. If the ultimate goal is to have there be no evil in the universe anymore, then wouldn't an omnibenevolent God do all that He could to eradicate evil?

Now the original argument goes that He couldn't do away with all evil without doing away with free will, and free will is important, I agree. But since I've shown that free will can exist without evil ever existing, the question remains, why does God want evil to exist? What purpose does it serve?

Because evil has not been destroyed yet. All the people who are in heaven have been exposed to evil and therefore given a free choice to accept God or choose evil and reject him. Evil is a very important part of the free will equation.

Thats why God made the tree in the garden that he told adam and eve not to eat from. To test them to see if they would choose him or evil. You may have created a fantasy world where evil doesn't exist but without the angels without Christ without humans to be able to choose God or evil there can't be a free choice of choosing God or evil. Thats why your hypothetical point doesn't work. Because without evil being a choice and us all being like God with the power to remove evil from the equation then we could choose to not serve God. It doesn't get anymore clear than this my friend.

 

[bling]

Why? So that evil wouldn't exist. Since that is claimed to be the ultimate goal, I'm showing that it never needed to exist in the first place. If the ultimate goal is to have there be no evil in the universe anymore, then wouldn't an omnibenevolent God do all that He could to eradicate evil?

Now the original argument goes that He couldn't do away with all evil without doing away with free will, and free will is important, I agree. But since I've shown that free will can exist without evil ever existing, the question remains, why does God want evil to exist? What purpose does it serve?

I will address your question if you would like:

Yes, free will can exist without sin/evil.

Man’s earthly objective is not to never/ever sin.

Evil and sin have a purpose, as you state: “It must if God allows it to exist”.

Evil and sin does not make God happy, but they are needed by man, to help willing humans fulfill their earthly objective.

There are things God cannot do, which are impossible to do like: “Make a being that has always existed (this would be like making “another” Christ).

The “ultimate goal” for mature adults id for them to fulfill their earthly objective and God’s goal would be to do everything He can to help those willing to accept His help fulfill their objective, with the “everything” including: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kind, death, hell, and sin.

 

[zippy2006]

You and everyone else that has replied talks about free will in such a way that it would mean God does not have free will.

I disagree. How do you believe my view implies a lack of freedom in God?

If you don't believe that a being can exist that is capable of choosing evil, but never will (guaranteed) then I don't know what to tell you about what you must think of God.

I said that when someone is free to choose a covenant with God, they are also free to dismiss this covenant.

The point of this thread is to show that God can and does make people be just like Him without ever making the choice of "entering a covenant" with Him.

There is an infinite distance between God and creatures. God is the very source of all goodness, and thus it would be impossible for him to fall away from goodness. Creatures only participate in the goodness of God, and can fall away since they are not themselves the source of goodness.

So first understand that we agree on the very premise of what I've stated: a being can exist that has free will but will never choose to do evil.

You would have to define free will. In my second link above I address the problem from two different definitions of free will.

If you do not agree with this, then God does not have free will. If you do agree with this, then humans (and angels) could have been made in such a way that evil never would have come into existence.

Non sequitur