The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

[YahuahSaves]

People think God and Satan, or at least, Jesus and Satan, represent a duality, and some even call them brothers.

For clarification: I don't.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I thought LORD was used because they considered the name YHWH so sacred they wouldn't write it or speak it? In that context then it makes sense why LORD was used.

Why do Bibles use “LORD” instead of YHWH or Jehovah?

"Elohim" ... yes....that's what they say. I personally don't believe it though. Throughout the scriptures it says to call on the name of the Lord.

 

[YahuahSaves]

By devil, are you referring to the arch-angel who led a third of the angels against God? I believe the serpent symbolizes the fault that Adam shared with the arch-angel.

Click the link in post #30 and have a read.

 

[Saint Steven]

God is a mystery, belonging to that place where humans cannot see and cannot go or understand. I see the difference between being similar to the difference between a caterpillar and the butterfly it turns into and the two witnesses are the Word of God and Jesus's confirming of it.

When you say "Word of God" are you referring to an English translation of the Bible?
If so, how did Jesus confirm it? (the KJV dates to 1611)

Jesus is "the Word of God" that became flesh.

 

[bling]

Nowhere presented in Scripture. . .see Jn 3:18, Jn 3:36, etc.

If we do not accept God's forgiveness, do we go to hell and if we accept God's forgiveness, do we go to heaven?

 

[Der Alte]

I know this post is long, was trying to be as thorough as possible, but there seems to be layers to this and it's probably better to allow others to add to the discussion.

My theory is God (being omniscient), knew before he created everything, what was going to happen with some of his created beings, and so his masterplan was to display his glory (his ultimate power and authority) through his creation? It seems this way to me after delving into the scriptures. What say you?

Let's start with the fact that God is all-knowing:

What does it mean that God is omniscient?

"Omniscience is defined as “the state of having total knowledge, the quality of knowing everything.” For God to be sovereign over His creation of all things, whether visible or invisible, He has to be all-knowing."

Hebrews 4:13

13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Jeremiah 23:24

24 Can anyone hide from me in a secret place?
Am I not everywhere in all the heavens and earth?”
says the Lord.

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the things I have done in the past.
For I alone am God!
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 Only I can tell you the future
before it even happens.
Everything I plan will come to pass,
for I do whatever I wish.

Before God created everything (and us) he already had a plan on how he would ultimately display his glory:

1 Peter 1:19-20

19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. 20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake.

Revelation 13:8

8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.[a]

God (the Father) created the world through the Son (the lamb/the word/Jesus Christ):

Colossians 1:16-17

16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.


Note: the "authorities" in the unseen world (See video below)

God created human beings in his image to reign over creation on the Earth:

Genesis 1:26-28

26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[a] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

27 So God created human beings[c] in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”

Then the temptation and fall: (my theory is that because satan was an arch angel, and part of the divine council, perhaps this temptation was agreed upon?) But only God knew what the outcome would be. I also never thought of this before, but the serpent knows about good and evil. (Or, knows of it?)

Genesis 3:1-5
The Man and Woman Sin

3 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2 “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3 “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

An example here that anyone hiding from God, and him not "knowing" what happened is impossible, as he is omniscient:

Genesis 3:8-11

8 When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man[a] and his wife heard the Lord God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the Lord God among the trees. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He replied, “I heard you walking in the garden, so I hid. I was afraid because I was naked.”

11 “Who told you that you were naked?” the Lord God asked. “Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat?

In certain parts of scripture, God seems to give satan a certain amount of leeway, but he seems to have lost his position in how God curses him:

Genesis 3:14-15

14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
15 And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike[a] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

He hasn't been cast to earth after the fall of humanity as he's still able to interact with God, and even suggest more temptation, so he must still be part of the divine council, but in a lowly position:

Job 1:6-12
Job’s First Test

6 One day the members of the heavenly court[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. 7 “Where have you come from?” the Lord asked Satan.

Satan answered the Lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”

8 Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”

9 Satan replied to the Lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”

12 “All right, you may test him,” the Lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the Lord’s presence.


Zechariah 3:1-2
Cleansing for the High Priest

3 Then the angel showed me Jeshua[a] the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. The Accuser, Satan, was there at the angel’s right hand, making accusations against Jeshua. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “I, the Lord, reject your accusations, Satan. Yes, the Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. This man is like a burning stick that has been snatched from the fire.”

So, when was the adversary cast to earth?

How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?

I'm thinking by the time he knew about Jesus:

Revelation 12:13

13 When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

So where do we fit in as the fallen creation?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The key word that we find throughout scripture, is glory.

John 17:1-5
The Prayer of Jesus

17 After saying all these things, Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

What is God's "glory"?

"In Exodus 16:7 we read "and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD" (RSV). What is the "glory" of YHWH? First we must recognize that the "glory" is something that will be seen. Secondly, the word "glory" is an abstract word. If we look at how this word is paralleled with other words in poetical passages of the Bible, we can discover the original concrete meaning of this word. In Psalm 3:3 the kavod of Elohiym (God) is paralleled with his "shield" and in Job 29:20, Job's kavod is paralleled with his "bow." In Psalm 24:8 we read "who is this king of the kavod, YHWH is strong and mighty, YHWH is mighty in battle." The original concrete meaning of kavod is battle armaments. The meaning "armament" fits with the literal meaning of the root of kavod, which is "heavy," and armaments are the heavy weapons and defenses of battle. In the Exodus 16:7, Israel will "see" the "armament" of YHWH, the one who has done battle for them with the Egyptians." SOURCE

So essentially, we're part of a spiritual battle:

Ephesians 6:12

12 For we[a] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.

2 Corinthians 3:18

18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

Why would God even consider "proving a point" to something He created?

 

[Mark Quayle]

If we do not accept God's forgiveness, do we go to hell and if we accept God's forgiveness, do we go to heaven?

What does it mean, "to accept" (and I don't want a generic answer), and more to the point, how is it possible, not to mention: How is it made true and irreversible, for the lost.

 

[bling]

That is another way of saying spiritual life or death (the equivalent of choosing to follow God or satan)

Not really, everyone would have no problem selecting life over death or God over satan, but humbly accepting pure undeserved charity as charity, requires quench of one's pride (even if it is a false pride. Sins have their perceived pleasures at least for a season.

 

[bling]

Read the entire post, and then comment.

I have read your post of mostly verses and your interpretation of those verses, but commenting on all of them would be a huge post so I started where you started and asked questions.

 

[Clare73]

When you say "Word of God" are you referring to an English translation of the Bible?
If so, how did Jesus confirm it? (the KJV dates to 1611)

Jesus is "the Word of God" that became flesh.

Jesus is "the Word" (in the Greek sense of the term as the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe, not an utterance of God) that became flesh, "the Word" being a term used only by John and found in no other NT writings.
Jesus is not the "Word of God" in NT teaching.

 

[Clare73]

If we do not accept God's forgiveness, do we go to hell and if we accept God's forgiveness, do we go to heaven?

Are you referring to saving faith as "accepting God's forgiveness"?

If so, why the change in nomenclature. . .the Bible does not need improving upon.

 

[bling]

What does it mean, "to accept" (and I don't want a generic answer), and more to the point, how is it possible, not to mention: How is it made true and irreversible, for the lost.

"Accepting" God's forgiving us, is our making an autonomous free will choice to receive God's forgiving us as pure undeserved charity, the way it is given. God is not going to force His will on us against our will. Forgiveness is an act of Love so if it were forced on a person like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, it would not be Loving on God's part, nor would the "love" received be Godly type Love.
People do not like to accept pure sacrificial undeserved charity as charity, so this is where the transaction breaks down.
Yes, we have to continue to accept God's forgiveness as charity from our hearts.

 

[bling]

Are you referring to saving faith as "accepting God's forgiveness"?

If so, why the change in nomenclature. . .the Bible does not need improving upon.

This comes from Luke 7 where we have to accept God's forgiving us of an unbelievable huge debt in order to automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). The faith (trust) comes in with believing God's Love is great enough to forgive us, He is willing to forgive us and we have greatly offended the Creator. That way we can be willing to accept God's forgiving us as pure undeserved sacrificial charity. If you do not trust what is being offered, you have nothing to accept.

 

[Clare73]

This comes from Luke 7 where we have to accept God's forgiving us of an unbelievable huge debt in order to automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). The faith (trust) comes in with believing God's Love is great enough to forgive us,

That is some serious grandiosity. . .to think one is capable of doing anything beyond God's capacity.

He is willing to forgive us and we have greatly offended the Creator. That way we can be willing to accept God's forgiving us as pure undeserved sacrificial charity. If you do not trust what is being offered, you have nothing to accept.

That's a whole lotta' extraneous verbiage from the mind of man, which is nowhere found in the NT regarding saving faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ whereby our sin is paid for and remitted.
I prefer the way the Scriptures present it.

 

[eleos1954]

"Elohim" ... yes....that's what they say. I personally don't believe it though. Throughout the scriptures it says to call on the name of the Lord.

Hebrew did not use vowels in its written form, it is not entirely clear how God’s name should be spelled or pronounced. It could be Yahweh, or Jehovah, or Yehowah, or something else. We don't really know.

I don't take issue with it .... to me LORD is acknowledging God as the creator of everything and having supreme authority.

When I pray I address Him as Heavenly Father.

 

[bling]

That is some serious grandiosity. . .to think one is capable of doing anything beyond God's capacity.

God’s forgiving is an unbelievable huge Love, sinners go to God hoping (with a trusting faith) for the possibility of God’s Love, so how is the sinner expressing capability beyond God?

That's a whole lotta' extraneous verbiage from the mind of man, which is nowhere found in the NT regarding saving faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ whereby our sin is paid for and remitted.
I prefer the way the Scriptures present it.

Jesus presents man as being like the prodigal son (Luke 15): hoping for just an undeserved livable life from the father he hated and not to get what he deserves (starving to death in the pigsty of life).

 

[Clare73]

God’s forgiving is an unbelievable huge Love, sinners go to God hoping (with a trusting faith) for the possibility of God’s Love, so how is the sinner expressing capability beyond God?

As you stated earlier, by thinking he could do anything beyond God's capacity to forgive. . .

Jesus presents man as being like the prodigal son (Luke 15): hoping for just an undeserved livable life from the father he hated and not to get what he deserves (starving to death in the pigsty of life).

However, the son's disposition does not reflect his estimate of the father's capacity, but of what the son deserves.
You are embellishing and pressing the parable too far.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Why would God even consider "proving a point" to something He created?

Did you read my OP?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Not really, everyone would have no problem selecting life over death or God over satan, but humbly accepting pure undeserved charity as charity, requires quench of one's pride (even if it is a false pride. Sins have their perceived pleasures at least for a season.

Huh?

Humbly accepting salvation and obeying God's will through the Holy Spirit is CHOOSING LIFE over death. It's a spiritual choice we make.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I have read your post of mostly verses and your interpretation of those verses, but commenting on all of them would be a huge post so I started where you started and asked questions.

No you didn't. Because you said this

I read lots of scripture, can you tell me what you think id man's objective while here on earth?

If you'd read the OP to the end, you wouldn't need to ask the question.