The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

[YahuahSaves]

But what point would God be trying to prove and to whom _ the one we call Satan?

That answer is in my OP (and scripture)

So where do we fit in as the fallen creation?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have always wondered why we are here the Bible says God created us for his pleasure I feel it's more than that.

See above and also note my OP under the headings "glory", toward the end of the post. Our "victory" is "in Christ" as believers.

These are questions I've asked myself
What happened to the 1/3 of angels that was cast down to the Earth with Satan? (They are never talked about but apparently they are on Earth.)
Why did Jesus said hell was created for Satan and the angels? (Yet the spirits in man can be/is destined for hell.)

The other angels are demons but there is speculation that the nephilim (sons of God) that mated with human women had offspring and created hybrids. (Some say they are the demons)

Why does the Bible say choose this day who you will serve?

Serve God and obtain life, serve satan and obtain death.

Why did God curse the Earth at the fall of flesh man?
Why does the Bible say the Earth is under judgment because the prince of this world is judged?

Because everything was given freely by God in the garden, once they disobeyed the curse was to make man have to toil for food... a lesson in being apart from God perhaps?

Why does the bible indicates God knew us before we were born? (The spirits in man were in heaven before.)

Many say because God is omniscient and "foreknew" who would be born... I'm on the fence about this one though.

Why does Paul describe some as being predestined before the foundations of the Earth? (Already chosen)
Why is the word redeemed used? (Redeemed from the fall of Adam or redeemed from the fall with Satan.)

Many say because (again) God had foreknowledge about who would believe in Him, and essentially, serve him. The story about separating the wheat from the chaff is an example.

Why is the devil in his anger and seemingly hatred determined to take as many of the spirits within man with him as he possibly can? (Could it be because he has been judged and condemned

That's what is said, yes. And he hates that he lost because he wanted to take God's throne.

Me, I personally think that there is a strong possibility that God created man strictly for the purpose of housing our fallen spirits to be judged.

But think about the creation story... Adam and Eve were created and told to multiply after their "kind" on the earth. How would they do that without human DNA? I believe "the fall" is strictly spiritual. And if you understand the hebrew word for sin is "miss the mark".

Here's a good example on the hebrew definition of Sin

 

[YahuahSaves]

And I add I have spoken to some who say they were of the Jewish faith and said that Satan works for God and is not evil. (I question that)

Yeah me too, considering many Jews don't believe Jesus was/is the Messiah.

Plus the name Satan is derived Satanail written of in The book of Enoch but the book of Enoch is not considered Canon.

Interesting, didn't know that... I've attempted to read the book of Enoch but it's very mythological...but I'm going to attempt again, just so I know what's in it for myself.

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint Steven said:

God is God, of course. Why would God have to "display his glory"? Isn't he glorious enough as is?
Same with his power and authority. What does he have to prove? And to whom?

Do you read scripture? Then it should be obvious to you, because it says it plainly.

I would like to think that God is superior in character to us. That he exceeds the standard he holds us to.
We have been sold a view of God that makes him inferior to us, even subhuman. A cosmic tyrant.

For example, Jesus teaches us that godly behavior is to love our enemies. See Matthew 5:43-48
But what have we been taught that God will do with "his enemies"? (incinerate them)

Why would God have to "display his glory"? Isn't he glorious enough as he is?
Same with his "power and authority". What does he have to prove? And to whom?

We can draw our own conclusions from creation. Nothing more is needed.
If God is in the business of punishment and torture, then your point about displaying his power and authority are valid.

However, if God is in the business of personal relationship, loving care, mercy, and restoration,
then we are talking about someone radically different.

 

[YahuahSaves]

God is God, of course. Why would God have to "display his glory"? Isn't he glorious enough as is?
Same with his power and authority. What does he have to prove? And to whom?

Why restate your question when I answered it with my quoted scripture from the OP? Here it is again: Ephesians 3:10-11

I would like to think that God is superior in character to us. That he exceeds the standard he holds us to.
We have been sold a view of God that makes him inferior to us, even subhuman. A cosmic tyrant.

Does this mean you don't believe the scriptures are 100% the truth?

For example, Jesus teaches us that godly behavior is to love our enemies. See Matthew 5:43-48
But what have we been taught that God will do with "his enemies"? (incinerate them)

Why would God have to "display his glory"? Isn't he glorious enough as he is?
Same with his "power and authority". What does he have to prove? And to whom?

Do you believe the devil is a spiritual being? The adversary of God?

then your point about displaying his power and authority are valid.

My point didn't describe God as a "cosmic bully". You obviously presumed something before reading the OP, or you didn't read it in full (including the links) before you responded.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It says "divine" as in spiritual beings, such as angels. (Who are not God). The ancient hebrew suggests it. Watch the video (or don't) up to you.

The video claims facts not in evidence, I think. Where do they get the notion, except by extrapolation from extra-Biblical sources, and perhaps the Job 38:7 "morning stars" that sing = the Job 38:7 "the sons of God" = 'the host of the heavens' = the sun, moon, and stars = 'The Divine Council; and that God gave them (not simply the physical sun and moon (Genesis 1)) authority to rule the day and night? Note also the nearly universal agreement among theologians that it is shaky to build doctrine on a single verse out of a poetic reference from Scripture. Note also that the term, 'Divine Council' is not a biblical term, but something some theologians refer to.

It is one thing to say that "the Hebrews thought in this manner". It is another to say that "therefore this which was Hebrew oral tradition and written in Hebrew means that the sun and moon and stars actually are angels that share God's authority and assist him with divine decisions."

Granted that the term, "divine", has many valid uses; I brought up the point, because a false use is too easily extrapolated from a valid use.

Also, a post or two back, you asked something along the lines of whether Satan had not been God's right arm. What did you mean by that? Are you asking if Satan is actually part of God? Or are you asking if Satan did not at some point occupy the place Jesus is said to occupy, at the right hand of the Father, or what are you asking/claiming?

 

[Clare73]

Which sixth grader best represents your view of God?

I'm thinking it's not his view of God which is immature. . .but the one that doesn't account for Isa 42:6 and Isa 48:11 which is immature.

 

[Clare73]

Only God is divinity, in that use of the word. You think he consulted angels for their advice?

I suggest that the divine council is where he informed the angels of his plan to create matter and also beings in his own image, in the plan to glorify the Son through making those beings into his own sons, which sonship the angels do not enjoy, and
I suggest that is when Satan rebelled against the plan of beings inferior to the angels (Heb 2:6-7) being made sons and, not only that, but the angels being made ministers to them (Heb 1:14).

 

[Clare73]

All good points.

But what point would God be trying to prove and to whom _ the one we call Satan?

I have always wondered why we are here the Bible says God created us for his pleasure I feel it's more than that.

These are questions I've asked myself
What happened to the 1/3 of angels that was cast down to the Earth with Satan? (They are never talked about but apparently they are on Earth.)
Why did Jesus said hell was created for Satan and the angels? (Yet the spirits in man can be/is destined for hell.)
Why does the Bible say choose this day who you will serve?
Why did God curse the Earth at the fall of flesh man?
Why does the Bible say the Earth is under judgment because the prince of this world is judged? (Satan is judged but none of the other angels are and the human flesh inhabitors of the Earth.)
Why does the bible indicates God knew us before we were born? (The spirits in man were in heaven before.)
Why does Paul describe some as being predestined before the foundations of the Earth? (Already chosen)
Why is the word redeemed used? (Redeemed from the fall of Adam or redeemed from the fall with Satan.)
Why is the devil in his anger and seemingly hatred determined to take as many of the spirits within man with him as he possibly can? (Could it be because he has been judged and condemned but God is showing Mercy and giving the other fallen a chance at redemption.)

Me, I personally think that there is a strong possibility that God created man strictly for the purpose of housing our fallen spirits to be judged. That human life on Earth is our trial. He has told us how to live and who to believe and have faith in - that our choices here determines our fate _ whether we end up with the same fate as the one we were cast down to earth with or redemption from the one who is showing us Mercy.
(This is food for thought!!!)

And I add I have spoken to some who say they were of the Jewish faith and said that Satan works for God and is not evil. (I question that)

The Jewish View of Satan

What is the Jewish view of Satan? Was he a fallen angel? Let's find out in this interesting post on this topic. Read on to find out.

jewsforjudaism.org

Plus the name Satan is derived Satanail written of in The book of Enoch but the book of Enoch is not considered Canon.

[PDF] The Watchers Of Satanail: The Fallen Angels Traditions In 2 (Slavonic) Enoch | Semantic Scholar

The early Enochic booklet unveils the misdeeds of the two hundred Watchers led by their leaders Shemihazah and Asael. What is striking, however, in the description given in the Slavonic apocalypse, is that in contrast to the classic Enochic account, the leadership over the fallen Watchers is...

www.semanticscholar.org

The Forgotten Books of Eden: The Book of the Secrets of E... | Sacred Texts Archive

Bible: THE men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori, of human appearance, and their...

www.sacred-texts.com

Are you familiar with the Bible?

 

[bling]

If you read my entire post I never denied choice. But there are only 2 choices we're able to make: life (God) or death (satan).

Many people believe God created us for us, but he created everything for himself.

Read the link I posted in the OP on God's omniscience:

I read your link on God’s omniscience and the scriptures used to support the author’s conclusion, but nothing was show about God’s omniscience that could not be the result of God knowing historically everything that happens in man’s future.

Yes, you and the author of the link did not say “man cannot make an autonomous free will choice”, but the way God’s knowledge of the future is presented, it would suggests man does not have free will.

Our free will choice is not between: heaven or hell nor life and death, since “death” is not a likely equal choice to life. That is like putting a gun to our heads. Our main choice is between: humbly accepting God’s forgiveness as pure undeserved charity (Love) or continuing to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.

 

[bling]

Also, read scripture:

I read lots of scripture, can you tell me what you think id man's objective while here on earth?

 

[Clare73]

I read your link on God’s omniscience and the scriptures used to support the author’s conclusion, but nothing was show about God’s omniscience that could not be the result of God knowing historically everything that happens in man’s future.
Yes, you and the author of the link did not say “man cannot make an autonomous free will choice”, but the way God’s knowledge of the future is presented, it would suggests man does not have free will.
Our free will choice is not between: heaven or hell nor life and death, since “death” is not a likely equal choice to life. That is like putting a gun to our heads. Our main choice is between: humbly accepting God’s forgiveness as pure undeserved charity (Love) or continuing to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.

Nowhere presented in Scripture. . .see Jn 3:18, Jn 3:36, etc.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Our main choice is between: humbly accepting God’s forgiveness as pure undeserved charity (Love) or continuing to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.

That is another way of saying spiritual life or death (the equivalent of choosing to follow God or satan)

 

[YahuahSaves]

I read lots of scripture, can you tell me what you think id man's objective while here on earth?

Read the entire post, and then comment.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I suggest that the divine council is where he informed the angels of his plan to create matter and also beings in his own image, in the plan to glorify the Son through making those beings into his own sons, which sonship the angels do not enjoy, and
I suggest that is when Satan rebelled against the plan of beings inferior to the angels (Heb 2:6-7) being made sons and, not only that, but the angels being made ministers to them (Heb 1:14).

I agree. I just don't like the term "divine" being thrown around, as if to mean one thing in one moment concerning angels or "gods" and the next moment they are thought to be immortal eternal beings of the same nature as God himself, and barely even to be considered mere creatures themselves. I think much of the fear and respect people have for Satan comes from the misperception of what he is —a mere creature. People think God and Satan, or at least, Jesus and Satan, represent a duality, and some even call them brothers.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes. I wondered because scripture isn't completely clear when satan was banished from entering heaven, because he does so after the fall of Adam and Eve. I think it happened just before or just after Jesus was born.

Satan and the 1/3 were cast out of heaven early on it seems and seems to point at about the same time of the creation of man .... however could have been before (as there was no (human) for satan to tempt into sin) ... after Adam sinned satan became the rightful "king" of the earth ... that is Adam forfeited his kingship to satan. So, satan was the rightful ruler of the earth and was allowed to attend the council of meetings in heaven as seen in Job.

Job 2:2

King James Bible
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

also seen .. of which Jesus did not refute satans dominion as being so

Matthew 4:9

New King James Version
And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

Then, at the crucifixion of Jesus .... satan was defeated and was cast down (no longer to access heaven) .... satan was defeated and kingship of the earth was restored to Jesus (thus the second Adam - before the fall)

so there were two casting downs ... the first brought peace in heaven .... the 2nd peace for eternity (yet to come and be fully manifest)

 

[eleos1954]

Interesting reading on how the term "Lucifer" came about here: Lucifer

The old Testament never gave the enemy a name. Just a title.

"We have taken the name of God, YHWH, and we have turned it into a title, “the LORD”. And then we took the title of the Evil One and turned it into a name, “Satan”. This is a monumental mess-up!"

"This is the chapter that the name Lucifer originates from. Helel, or the shining one, was translated in Latin as lucifer. In Roman mythology Lucifer (meaning light-bringer) was the classical name for the planet Venus… the early one that shines in the morning. There is no star (kokav) in the Isaiah passage (although an awful lot of translations use star). The name Lucifer does not show up in the Bible anywhere. “The Shining One” is a title, just like Ha-Satan is a title (“the Adversary”)."

From: Satan: ADVERSARY is not a name

I thought LORD was used because they considered the name YHWH so sacred they wouldn't write it or speak it? In that context then it makes sense why LORD was used.

Why do Bibles use “LORD” instead of YHWH or Jehovah?

 

[sparow]

Yes. Also Ha-satan is mentioned in reference to the devil. "THE adversary", (as in the ultimate) adversary is the serpent from the garden of Eden.

By devil, are you referring to the arch-angel who led a third of the angels against God? I believe the serpent symbolizes the fault that Adam shared with the arch-angel.

 

[sparow]

God is a mystery, belonging to that place where humans cannot see and cannot go or understand. I see the difference between being similar to the difference between a caterpillar and the butterfly it turns into and the two witnesses are the Word of God and Jesus's confirming of it.

 

[YahuahSaves]

The video claims facts not in evidence, I think

The men that are behind the bibleproject study the hebrew. Perhaps download the app, they have a ton of podcasts discussing different aspects of scripture.

Satan did not at some point occupy the place Jesus is said to occupy, at the right hand of the Father, or what are you asking/claiming?

Perhaps that's a ghost from my religious upbringing. I was told satan (lucifer) was once an archangel and the right-hand (helper) of God (not God) and his pride was what led to him being cast down from his position in heaven. The bible isn't clear on the details concerning the what and how - but it is clear that angels had positions of authority.

Jude 6

6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I'm thinking it's not his view of God which is immature. . .but the one that doesn't account for Isa 42:6 and Isa 48:11 which is immature.

Are you talking about me there?