The plan of creation: Did God create humans to prove a point?

[YahuahSaves]

Hebrew did not use vowels in its written form, it is not entirely clear how God’s name should be spelled or pronounced. It could be Yahweh, or Jehovah, or Yehowah, or something else. We don't really know.

I don't take issue with it .... to me LORD is acknowledging God as the creator of everything and having supreme authority.

When I pray I address Him as Heavenly Father.

Yes I know that. But the vowels were passed down orally and since ancient and modern hebrew are different, and they changed the name in the Torah, I believe the true pronunciation has been lost. (But that's not a discussion for this thread).

God knows what's in our hearts, so His saving grace is not limited to his true name. We can call out to Jesus and be saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

Did you read my OP?

Ephesians 3:10-11

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

What translation/paraphrase is that taken from?
Verse 11 seems to contradict verse 10. Was God's eternal purpose accomplished in the church, or in Christ?
I can't imagine he would leave that up to us.

Ephesians 3:10-11 NIV
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[YahuahSaves]

What translation/paraphrase is that taken from?
Verse 11 seems to contradict verse 10. Was God's eternal purpose accomplished in the church, or in Christ?
I can't imagine he would leave that up to us.

Ephesians 3:10-11 NIV
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The "Church" (Ekklesia) are Christ's followers (believers) I thought you knew that?

YLT is closer to the OG language:

Ephesians 3:10-11
Young's Literal Translation
10 that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God,

11 according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord,

 

[Saint Steven]

Note: the "authorities" in the unseen world (See video below)

This subject of the Divine Council is quite fascinating. I had not heard it related to the "heavenly bodies" before.

 

[YahuahSaves]

This subject of the Divine Council is quite fascinating. I had not heard it related to the "heavenly bodies" before.

There are differing views but the ancient Hebrews seemed to believe the Angels have God-given authority. (Positions).
I was reading something earlier that related to that:

Jude 6

6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

 

[Saint Steven]

The "Church" (Ekklesia) are Christ's followers (believers) I thought you knew that?

Of course I knew that.
But I question whether the church (Christ's followers) was God's eternal purpose and plan.
To what end? That is usually what a PURPOSE refers to. The goal, the intent, the desired outcome. (of the plan)

It seems to me that the redemption of humankind was "his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord." (vs 11)

Ephesians 3:10-11 NIV
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are differing views but the ancient Hebrews seemed to believe the Angels have God-given authority. (Positions).
I was reading something earlier that related to that:

Jude 6
6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

Wow. That sheds a whole new light (or the lack thereof) on that scripture. The heavens are a prison of darkness for those heavenly bodies held in their place. I wonder what happens when they are released. (before the Judgement)

 

[Saint Steven]

There are differing views but the ancient Hebrews seemed to believe the Angels have God-given authority. (Positions).
I was reading something earlier that related to that:

Jude 6

6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.

Verse 13 uses the term "wandering stars".

Jude 13 NIV
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

 

[YahuahSaves]

It seems to me that the redemption of humankind was "his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord." (vs 11)

Sure, but all people have to do is believe in the work of the cross and repent (which literally means "change one's mind").

If you look at the YLT:

Ephesians 3:10-11
Young's Literal Translation
10 that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God,

11 according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord,

And then look at this scripture, which points to making disciples of the nation's:

Matthew 28:16-20
Young's Literal Translation
16 And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them,

17 and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver.

18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

 

[YahuahSaves]

Verse 13 uses the term "wandering stars".

Jude 13 NIV
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

If you read the entire thing it's talking about false teachers. They scoff at supernatural beings. Jude 1:3-16

 

[Saint Steven]

If you read the entire thing it's talking about false teachers. They scoff at supernatural beings. Jude 1:3-16

Yes, but who is the "power" behind false teachers? Scoffing is probably a cover. They don't want to be discovered.
Like "the man behind the curtain" in the Wizard of Oz.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yes, but who is the "power" behind false teachers? Scoffing is probably a cover. They don't want to be discovered.
Like "the man behind the curtain" in the Wizard of Oz.

Exactly.

2 Corinthians 4:4

4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

 

[YahuahSaves]

This subject of the Divine Council is quite fascinating. I had not heard it related to the "heavenly bodies" before.

I was looking for something else for another thread and came upon this, which adds another layer to angels. We know they cannot die, or else God would not have to chain the devil for eternity. They're the OG "Sons of God", according to what I've heard about the book of Enoch (yet to read it fully though). So if they never die, they must have been created from God...

Luke 20:34-36

34 Jesus replied, “Marriage is for people here on earth. 35 But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36 And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.

 

[bling]

Huh?

Humbly accepting salvation and obeying God's will through the Holy Spirit is CHOOSING LIFE over death. It's a spiritual choice we make.

Again, not really, eternal life comes with accepting God's Love in the form of forgiveness as pure undeserved charity. The Holy Spirit also come later.

 

[bling]

As you stated earlier, by thinking he could do anything beyond God's capacity to forgive. . .

I do not find where I am stating or even suggesting the sinner is thinking beyond God’s capacity to forgive since there is nothing beyond God’s capacity to forgive. God would have forgiven all those involved in the murdering of Jesus since Jesus requested that, which is way beyond logical forgiving. The problem is not with God’s capacity, but it is with man’s free will choice to humbly accept being forgiven as pure charity or go on refusing to be humble.

However, the son's disposition does not reflect his estimate of the father's capacity, but of what the son deserves.
You are embellishing and pressing the parable too far.

Jesus communicates perfectly and is never misleading. There is no better way of saying what Jesus said. What I said is not outside what the parable talked about and it is also what we see happening in the Kingdom and with lives around us.

 

[bling]

No you didn't. Because you said this

If you'd read the OP to the end, you wouldn't need to ask the question.

I did not find a short simple Mission Statement in all your words, can you give me one?

 

[Clare73]

I do not find where I am stating or even suggesting the sinner is thinking beyond God’s capacity to forgive since there is nothing beyond God’s capacity to forgive. God would have forgiven all those involved in the murdering of Jesus since Jesus requested that, which is way beyond logical forgiving. The problem is not with God’s capacity, but it is with man’s free will choice to humbly accept being forgiven as pure charity or go on refusing to be humble.

Such reason being nowhere presented in Scripture, but a product of your own invention, as are other such notions which you present.

Jesus communicates perfectly and is never misleading. There is no better way of saying what Jesus said. What I said is not outside what the parable talked about and it is also what we see happening in the Kingdom and with lives around us.

Indeed it is, the parable states nothing about the father's capacity to forgive.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Again, not really, eternal life comes with accepting God's Love in the form of forgiveness as pure undeserved charity. The Holy Spirit also come later.

Accepting forgiveness is accepting salvation. To believe is the first step. It's a choice. To "repent" in the ancient hebrew is literally to "change one's mind".

 

[YahuahSaves]

The problem is not with God’s capacity, but it is with man’s free will choice to humbly accept being forgiven as pure charity or go on refusing to be humble.

I think the problem is you're suggesting there is nothing more to following Christ than to simply "humbly accept forgiveness". There's more to it than that.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I did not find a short simple Mission Statement in all your words, can you give me one?

Why would I need to give you a mission statement? I'm not a company. If you can't be bothered reading threads, don't participate in them.