The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

[Guojing]

Seems that you missed this.

It's what the historic true Christian Church has always believed.

So don't miss it.

The guys who translated the KJV are better in Greek than you.

 

[Guojing]

-

 

[Guojing]

James doesn't say that circumcision is necessary for anyone. Jews can do it to maintain their customs and it is [was] commonly done in Christian society. I can personally attest to that. It has no bearing on Salvation, as Paul makes clear.

You are seemingly incapable of understanding God's Plans for His faithful Christian people. Read Jeremiah 23:3, Jeremiah 50:4-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Isaiah 35:15-20, Joel 3:18, Psalms 37:29, Romans 9:24-26, +

And 2.5 billion faithful Christians, is a huge stretch!

One cannot be zealous for the law and not view physical circumcision as necessary

So when you said James was wrong, what exactly did you mean by that?

 

[Guojing]

No, this does not help any one. Christ is the Second Adam. The body of Christ is all the redeemed from Adam's offspring. The church is the new Adam. Adam was the only son of God, whose offspring lived after the Flood, via Noah.

Abraham is a subset of the church.

Israel is a subset of Abraham. Abraham's family blessed the world. Even Israel was broken down and scattered throughout the world, to bless the world. That is it.

After the Second Coming, there is a rebirth of National Israel. For one, 144k are sealed. The sheep are harvested. That is God preparing for the Millennium. This is what the Second Coming is about. The church is complete at the Second Coming. Adam's family complete in Paradise, the Garden.

Abraham's family through David, were wrapped up at the Cross. Abraham's bosom was transfered to Paradise. The rest were dead in their sins, unless they repented and became the NT church. Today it is just the dead being given new life in Christ. Nothing special about any one. Except God has 144k chosen, and perhaps thousands if not millions of sheep pertaining to what the dead bones of Israel refer to. But all the rest of the dead do not live again, until they stand before the GWT. The goats are placed in Death, until the GWT.

In the 4th Seal we are introduced to Death, and we see his companion is sheol. Here is the difference. Sheol people still found in the Lamb's book of life. Death, after the 7th Seal is opened, souls are removed from the book of life, and placed into Death. Even during the Millennium disobedience to the rule of Christ is immediate Death. No one goes to sheol after the 7th Seal.

Does sheol represent a second chance? Calvinist would say no, because they were never found in the Lamb's book of life. If that is the case why is the Lamb's book of life opened at the GWT? If their names are not there, it will do them no good to find their name there. It is the point they themselves will remove their name. Now they can still remain there, if they so choose. They will know the truth of their choice and be without excuse. God placed everyone in the Lamb's book of life. The Atonement covered all. The book was sealed. It is still sealed, until after the Second Coming. Only then can names be removed.

The GWT is the last time and place, after earth has passed, for names to be removed. That is why the Lamb's book of life is there and opened. I do not see it as a second chance for redemption. For some it may be their first chance, only God knows their heart. It is the last chance to say no. If they said no when life is good, they are twice as likely to say no when life is bad in sheol. I do not see torment as a means of changing one's mind. The rich man never asked for a second chance on good behavior. He asked for help from Lazarus, and even wanted Lazarus to do all the work of returning to life, and attempting to keep his brothers out of sheol. No remorse for himself being there. A mind made up will not be easily changed, even after thousands of years in sheol and even standing before God Himself.

Do you agree that Israel is not the body of Christ?

 

[Guojing]

Paul was making the point that there was more to being a Jew than circumcision of the flesh.

Paul was also making the point to be right with God was to be a righteous person, physical circumcision is not enough.

A Jew needs to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah to be a true Jew.

A natural Jew, one who is only circumcised, is not enough to be a True Jew, without that belief.

Either way, the Body of Christ has nothing to do with that passage.

 

[keras]

One cannot be zealous for the law and not view physical circumcision as necessary

So when you said James was wrong, what exactly did you mean by that?

Careful reading of Acts 15:13-21, shows that James was not wrong, he just made it clear that the non Jews were not bound by any Jewish laws.

Either way, the Body of Christ has nothing to do with that passage.

And the apostate Jews have nothing to do with the body of Christ.

 

[Guojing]

Careful reading of Acts 15:13-21, shows that James was not wrong, he just made it clear that the non Jews were not bound by any Jewish laws.

And the apostate Jews have nothing to do with the body of Christ.

But Jews who believe continue to be zealous for the Law of Moses, as I stated.

James even reminded the 12 tribes that in James 2:14

 

[jgr]

The guys who translated the KJV are better in Greek than you.

The guys who wrote the Greek are better in Greek than you.

The Holy Spirit who inspired the guys who wrote the Greek is better in Greek than you.

 

[Timtofly]

This I totally disagree with.
The Church, God's holy people never leave the earth. Why should we? We are here to do his work and skiving off is never an option.
God's people ARE seen on earth during the Great Trib. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

The majority have already left. This world is not our home. These last 3 generations of NT church do not belong here any more than those of the last 5991 years. Hebrews 11. 2 Corinthians 5.

Those sheep of Matthew 25, do not even know who they are at this very minute. The church cannot be one of them, with all the knowledge a current church member possesses about God's Word. They are not symbolic of today's church fallen away into apostasy. Those sheep are not a "second chance" at salvation after the Second Coming.

The church will never leave Paradise. The church will return in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

And 2.5 billion faithful Christians, is a huge stretch!

Out of 117 billion in the last 5991 years? That is only 2%. I think the population of Paradise is way higher than 2.5 billion.

The church is not going to be split. Some living in Paradise, and some on the earth. All will be in Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you agree that Israel is not the body of Christ?

Not the way theology puts it. We are 1991 years past the fact, Israel is no longer relevant. It is just a word game theologians play today.

Israel is a nation, about to be reborn. The church is of Paradise, about to be glorified.

The thinking of the first century can no longer apply. The church will never be part of National Israel. Before Christ, there was a part of Israel who were also a part of the church.

But today, part of the church is not going to remain on earth to live as National Israel. The 144k are not redeemed by choice and the free will to accept the Gospel. Some want to be part of the church, and part of the left behind at the same time. That is not how it works.

It is like claiming all those living in the US, an alledged "Christian" nation are literal Christians. That is what Paul is explaining to all those living in Israel in the first century. Just living in a certain nation does not make one part of the redeemed. Going to a church today is a mark of outward confession like being circumcised. It does not matter. Only what is going on in the heart matters. So replace circumcision with church attendance. Replace Israel with the United States. That is what Paul is talking about. Paul is not talking about being a "spiritual" entity. Being a spiritual Jew is the same as being a spiritual American. A patriotic person of faith.

 

[keras]

But Jews who believe continue to be zealous for the Law of Moses, as I stated.

That is up to them. It does them no good.

The majority have already left. This world is not our home. These last 3 generations of NT church do not belong here any more than those of the last 5991 years.

If you mean dead Christians, you are wrong. They all lie in their graves, awaiting the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium.
Going to heaven as any kind of conscious being, is never said to happen.
There are instances when God does allow the souls of the martyrs to cry out. I think this is simply allegorical; anyway.

The church is not going to be split. Some living in Paradise, and some on the earth. All will be in Paradise.

As we never leave earth and eventually God come here to dwell with us, your 'spiritual paradise' notions are just fables.

 

[Guojing]

That is up to them. It does them no good.

James is the pastor of the little flock, and he reminded them about faith and works and how it saves them in James 2:14 onwards.

If that is not enough, John further remind the little flock at various places in his letter, the same thing.

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Have you realized that throughout all his 5 chapters, the same theme is repeated time and time again? Its hard not to get that conclusion what the apostle John is telling his Jewish betheren how to be right with God.

 

[Guojing]

Not the way theology puts it. We are 1991 years past the fact, Israel is no longer relevant. It is just a word game theologians play today.

Israel is a nation, about to be reborn. The church is of Paradise, about to be glorified.

The thinking of the first century can no longer apply. The church will never be part of National Israel. Before Christ, there was a part of Israel who were also a part of the church.

But today, part of the church is not going to remain on earth to live as National Israel. The 144k are not redeemed by choice and the free will to accept the Gospel. Some want to be part of the church, and part of the left behind at the same time. That is not how it works.

It is like claiming all those living in the US, an alledged "Christian" nation are literal Christians. That is what Paul is explaining to all those living in Israel in the first century. Just living in a certain nation does not make one part of the redeemed. Going to a church today is a mark of outward confession like being circumcised. It does not matter. Only what is going on in the heart matters. So replace circumcision with church attendance. Replace Israel with the United States. That is what Paul is talking about. Paul is not talking about being a "spiritual" entity. Being a spiritual Jew is the same as being a spiritual American. A patriotic person of faith.

If you disagree, then naturally you will think my point is no good. Anyway that post you reply to was to help biblewriter.

 

[Guojing]

The guys who wrote the Greek are better in Greek than you.

The Holy Spirit who inspired the guys who wrote the Greek is better in Greek than you.

I don't know Greek, so of course you are correct in all your points here.

I rely on the KJV translators to get the English meaning from those Greek sentences.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

How about this alternative interpretation of Romans 9:6?

True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts.

They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)

As a result of the fall of the nation of Israel, salvation without the Law of Moses (Romans 4:5), is now open to everyone, Jew and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace (Romans 11:11).

All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

But the Body of Christ is not the same as the little flock. They are 2 separate groups of believers.

This would help Biblewriter in this thread.

That is the wrong interpretation of Romans 9:6. You need to read Romans 9:7-8 to understand what Romans 9:6 means.

In verses 7 and 8, Paul defines the Israel (True Israel/Israel of God) of which not all of the nation of Israel are part as the children of God, Abraham's seed and children of the promise. Galatians 3:16 makes it very clear that the promises were made to Abraham and his seed and Paul says Abraham's seed is Christ. Then in Galatians 3:26-29 Paul makes it clear that Jew and Gentile believers are the heirs of the promise made to Abraham because of their faith in Christ.

So, there is no basis for thinking that Paul was saying one had to be a natural descendant in order to be part of the true Israel of God. Instead, it has to do with whether someone has faith in Christ or not, regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile. There is no basis whatsoever for differentiating between the Body of Christ and the True Israel of God because they are the same. The requirements for being part of the body of Christ are the same requirements for being part of the Israel of God, which are that you must have faith in Christ. One's nationality has nothing to do with it. Your doctrine separates what the blood of Christ has brought together as one (Eph 2:11-21).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

James is the pastor of the little flock, and he reminded them about faith and works and how it saves them in James 2:14 onwards.

If that is not enough, John further remind the little flock at various places in his letter, the same thing.

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Have you realized that throughout all his 5 chapters, the same theme is repeated time and time again? Its hard not to get that conclusion what the apostle John is telling his Jewish betheren how to be right with God.

This is shameful. You believe in two gospels. One for Jews (a gospel of faith plus works being required for salvation) and one for Gentiles (faith only being required).

But, there is only one gospel for all people including Jews and Gentiles. The kind of faith required for Jews and Gentiles will naturally result in works because it's the kind of faith that says you trust Christ with your life and will do anything for Him. Your false two gospel doctrine is not taught in scripture. The gospel preached first in Israel is the same gospel that went out to the Gentiles as well.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Clearly, Paul knew nothing of a second gospel as he only preached one gospel to Jews and Gentiles alike.

 

[Biblewriter]

That is the wrong interpretation of Romans 9:6. You need to read Romans 9:7-8 to understand what Romans 9:6 means.

In verses 7 and 8, Paul defines the Israel (True Israel/Israel of God) of which not all of the nation of Israel are part as the children of God, Abraham's seed and children of the promise. Galatians 3:16 makes it very clear that the promises were made to Abraham and his seed and Paul says Abraham's seed is Christ. Then in Galatians 3:26-29 Paul makes it clear that Jew and Gentile believers are the heirs of the promise made to Abraham because of their faith in Christ.

So, there is no basis for thinking that Paul was saying one had to be a natural descendant in order to be part of the true Israel of God. Instead, it has to do with whether someone has faith in Christ or not, regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile. There is no basis whatsoever for differentiating between the Body of Christ and the True Israel of God because they are the same. The requirements for being part of the body of Christ are the same requirements for being part of the Israel of God, which are that you must have faith in Christ. One's nationality has nothing to do with it. Your doctrine separates what the blood of Christ has brought together as one (Eph 2:11-21).

Actually, you have inverted what the scriptures ACTUALLY say. The two examples given by the Holy Spirit in Romans 9: 7-12, to show what He meant in Romans 9:6 were BOTH examples of SOME, but not ALL of the physical seed of Abraham being the chosen seed.

The HARD TRUTH is that there is n scriptural basis for imagining that anyone who is not of the Physical seed of Abraham can be a part of "the Israel of God."

 

[Guojing]

This is shameful. You believe in two gospels. One for Jews (a gospel of faith plus works being required for salvation) and one for Gentiles (faith only being required).

But, there is only one gospel for all people including Jews and Gentiles. The kind of faith required for Jews and Gentiles will naturally result in works because it's the kind of faith that says you trust Christ with your life and will do anything for Him. Your false two gospel doctrine is not taught in scripture. The gospel preached first in Israel is the same gospel that went out to the Gentiles as well.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Clearly, Paul knew nothing of a second gospel as he only preached one gospel to Jews and Gentiles alike.

Galatians 2:7-9 is the KJV scripture you have to understand literally. Clearly you knew nothing of it.

Paul preached one gospel to the Body of Christ, the gospel of the uncircumcision.

But as agreed with Peter James and John, there is a gospel of the circumcision for the little flock, which comprised only of Jewish believers (Acts 21:18-25).

 

[Guojing]

That is the wrong interpretation of Romans 9:6. You need to read Romans 9:7-8 to understand what Romans 9:6 means.

In verses 7 and 8, Paul defines the Israel (True Israel/Israel of God) of which not all of the nation of Israel are part as the children of God, Abraham's seed and children of the promise. Galatians 3:16 makes it very clear that the promises were made to Abraham and his seed and Paul says Abraham's seed is Christ. Then in Galatians 3:26-29 Paul makes it clear that Jew and Gentile believers are the heirs of the promise made to Abraham because of their faith in Christ.

So, there is no basis for thinking that Paul was saying one had to be a natural descendant in order to be part of the true Israel of God. Instead, it has to do with whether someone has faith in Christ or not, regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile. There is no basis whatsoever for differentiating between the Body of Christ and the True Israel of God because they are the same. The requirements for being part of the body of Christ are the same requirements for being part of the Israel of God, which are that you must have faith in Christ. One's nationality has nothing to do with it. Your doctrine separates what the blood of Christ has brought together as one (Eph 2:11-21).

Again, so long as you are unable to distinguish between

1. the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile
2. The little flock where there are only Jewish believers (Acts 21:18-25)

You will be unable to understand and accept my point.

Acts 21:18-25 is a clear separation of the 2 groups. Did you notice Paul didn't rebuke James for insisting that Jews who believed must also be zealous for the Law (James 2:14), neither did he proclaim a curse on James for preaching another gospel from what Paul preached?