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The physical descendants of the acient nation of Israel.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Jesus is not the physical Seed of Abraham, so you have a dilemma and are taking one context of Scripture -that of the context of being a child of Abraham in the sense of being a child of faith, and so, a "child of Abraham" in that sense of his faith- and wrongly trying to make all the world's inhabitants a physical seed out of Jacob's physical loins.


    The whole point being discussed -which I responded to- is the fact that not every person is Jacob's physical seed, from Jacob's physical loins.
    Not even Jesus, the Christ come in flesh, is a seed out of Jacob or Abraham's loins, but He is the Seed of the Woman which is Zion of the Heavenly/ spiritual realm -which realm is as solid and real as the ground we walk on, but is above, not below- and Zion above is personified in the Word from Genesis to Revelation as the Woman whose Seed is Christ who was promised to come, and who is come, in flesh.

    God is able to raise up seed to Abraham from stones of earth's dust, but that is another context, and you aren't ready for that until you grasp what's physically being discussed, and "at hand".

    Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I [am] the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

     
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That's where you have the problem because you make up thing's that are not in the scripture. There are things in what you assume, that scripture doesn't say...you do.

    You really don't get it....that is the very promise to Abraham, the covenant starts with Abraham.

    Who cares about "physical seed"...Esau was physical seed too...so your argument doesn't wash...the seed is those who are of faith!

    Perhaps you might read Romans 4 and Hebrews 11...then you might get it!
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Well...let's examine that Doug...Romans 4:13 tells us who the promise of Abraham is too:
    13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Do you not embrace the fact that this was Israel's error? You are told that in Romans 9:31, 32:
    31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
    32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.


    Does Benjamin Netanyahu have the "faith of Abraham"?

    The promise was NEVER to physical descendants...this is what you are told all through scripture. It is scripture that tells you ISRAEL FAILED BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE FAITH!

    That should answer your question....:thumbsup: :amen:
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  4. Ebed

    Ebed Member

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    Bold Emphasis Mine

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7716289/#post62192058

    Bold Emphasis Mine

    Lev 13:3 And the priest shall look on the plague in the skin of the flesh: and the hair in the plague is turned white, and the plague in sight deeper than the skin of his flesh, it is a plague of leprosy: and the priest shall look on him, and pronounce him unclean

    4 And if the bright spot is white in the skin of his flesh, and its appearance is not deeper than the skin, and its hair has not turned white, then hath the priest shut up the plague seven days.

    White hair = Unclean vs 3

    No White hair = check back in 7 days vs. 4

    Does White Always represent Purity ?

    Yes, If you make things Up, Assume and really don't get it !
     
  5. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    But Ebed "Satan masquerades as an angel of light." I guess that would be extra bright.

    Anyway, you are not engaging the information EbedM has put to you. Can you really say you know Gal. 3 forward and backward on this?

    Believers are not born of a husband's decision, or of physical lineage, but of God (Jn 1).

    --Inter
     
  6. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    No...the problem is what you're trying to affirm is very different. The white you speak of is descriptive of the appearance of leprosy. So already you've gone in the wrong direction.

    Try looking at white as it is "used symbolically". I said "how white is USED in scripture"...meaning the symbolism of white.

    Like Isaiah 1:18:
    “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.

    Daniel 7:9:
    “I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.

    That's symbolism Ebed! So I made nothing up...that is THE USE of white, rather than white as describing how leprosy looks....:thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am asking if he is a physical descendant, not his religion. Is Benjamin Netanyahu a physical descendent of Israel?


    Doug
     
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    How does it matter Doug? Paul says Israel is NOT the children of the flesh. Work with that.
     
  9. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Doug,
    the Greek phrase 'kata sarka' is what EbedM has been refering to when saying we don't look at what Israel is 'according to the flesh.' (Jn 1:13 'the will of the flesh'; Rom 8:4; 9:8; Gal. 3:3; 5:13). Would it help to know that people can even be familiar with Christ 'kata sarka' but that is no longer how Paul knows him (2 Cor 5:16)? And notice: "we don't look at anyone 'kata sarka'." Everything is now defined by the Christ event which justifies and reconciles the sin debt--that is the "new" that has come, in 17+. Don't forget, in this context, old has to do with old covenant; new has to do with the new one (as the momentum of the letter goes, chs 2-3).

    --Inter
     
  10. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Inter...that's a great point, but many explain that away. This is why the "two peoples of God" concept is debated so heavily. I was in that line of thought a long time...but I just kept reading the scriptures because it didn't add up.

    Now your statement is on point, except when you say "is now defined by the Christ event", you allow the same misconception, as if before Christ there was some other way to be saved. Salvation always has and always will be by faith...even before Christ came to earth.

    *Paul argues in Romans 4 Abraham's faith saved Him.

    *Paul argues "justification by faith" in Romans 5.

    *Paul tells us Israel failed because they did not seek God by faith in Romans 9.

    His argument is clear in Galatians 3, where he point's out that 430 years before God even gave the Law, Abraham's faith saved him .

    The benefit of the New Covenant is Christ becoming the sacrifice for sin and sending the Holy Spirit into our hearts.

    That's how "all Israel will be saved"...because it's the "Israel of God" made up of Jews and Gentiles who are of the household of faith.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  11. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Yes, you're right about the retroactivity of Christ. But it doesn't sound retroactive in 2 Cor 5, and that's probably why I didn't! Trying to "sound like" is not enough!

    To Yeshua: can you write a few lines summarizing Gal. 3?

    --Inter
     
  12. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    No Thank you.
    I do not care for your replacement theology and this forum is not about your replacement theology. This is eschatology.
     
  13. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Physical seed of the House of Israel are the twelve tribes of Israel, out of Jacob's loins.
     
  14. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    To Yeshua, I am a historian. My theology is Collaborative Theology: both Jews and the nations work in the kingdom of God together and its Gospel of justification by faith. Justification by faith is what Gal. 3 is about. You won't read Gal. 3. Would you please, therefore, call your theology "replacement" (ie, you have replaced Gal. 3 with _______) and mine Collaborative.

    As for eschatology, the eschaton is what happens at the end. The apostle's end as they saw it. Gal. 3 is totally eschatological, as is Rom. 3. The message of these is our message to the lost world. We need to be deep in it, so it comes out smooth.

    Blessings,

    --Inter
     
  15. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    whatever.
    I call you a replacement theology person who does not believe the Word as it is plainly written, and you did not really make up your doctrine either, but you followed men in that error, whom you repeat the errors of, in your deceit.
    It is of no use to try to have a true Bible discussion, because you do not believe it, and have changed what is there, for a fable that is not there.
     
  16. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Actually yeshuasavedme, it is you who don't believe the scriptures! You want to ignore what it actually says...and I'll prove it.

    This is Romans 9:6-9:
    6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
    7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


    Since you talk about "believing the scriptures"...do you believe what that says?

    What is it saying right there plainly? (as you say)
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Galations 3
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


    Actually Paul said the descendants of "the" seed of Abraham are not children of the flesh. "The" seed, Paul explains is Christ. We become the Children of God through Christ.

    I am asking you is Benjamin Netanyahu a physical descendant of Israel? The promise that Paul was arguing is about "the" seed of Abraham. Besides, the physical descendant of Israel as pertaining to the physical nation of Israel is a descendant of the 12 tribes of Israel, not the 12 tribes of Abraham.

    [my comments in brackets]

    Romans 9:6-9:
    6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they [the children of God] are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
    7 nor are they all children [of God] because they are Abraham’s descendants [which includes the Arabs], but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” ["the" seed had to come through Isaac]

    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh [the children of Israel] who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants [of "the" seed of Arabraham].


    They are not all Israel as pertaining to also being the Children of God because they have not all accepted Christ, the seed. All Israel is not the Children of God. That's why in verse 8, Paul clarifies what he has just said in verses 6 and 7, by saying... "THAT IS" - it is not the children of the flesh (the physical descendants of Israel) who are the children of God, but (those who are the children of God) are the children of the promise are regarded as descendants (of "the" seed of Abraham).

    But regarding the promises under the Mount Sinai covenant, the physical children of Israel are children of the flesh of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Mount Sinai covenant is between the Children of Israel and God. And the end times prophecies dealing with Israel is pertaining to the Children of Israel, not the children of Abraham by "the" seed which is Christ.

    Paul was arguing the children of the promise to Abraham regarding "the" seed, which Paul said was Christ, applied to Christians, regardless if they were Jew or Gentile, as being the children of God.

    So the point is Benjamin Netanhayu is a physical descendant of the Children of Israel, and therefore is living evidence that the fulfillment regarding "Israel" becoming a nation again restored as an "independent" nation again has been fulfilled.

    It does not negate what Paul was arguing regarding the Children of God being those who have been made so by promise thru Abraham's seed, the seed, which is Christ, as being Christians, regardless if they are Jew or Gentile.

    Being of a physical of the flesh descendent of Israel does not automatically equate to being of the Children of God. Only if those have accepted Christ, are they the Children of God. But the end times prophecies regarding Israel - are not end times prophecies regarding the Children of God.

    Eventually, the nation of Israel, in the future, will embrace Jesus as their messiah, and thus all of Israel will be saved, not just those who have up to this point accepted Jesus as their messiah. In doing so, it is not talking about retroactive salvation of those who have rejected Christ. Those are the original branches that have been cutoff.

    Doug
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Yes, it says it very plainly. But what it says is not what you claim it says. I have just posted a complete explanation of your error in a thread titled "The True Meaning of Romans 9-11"
     
  19. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Yes it is Biblewriter and I don't have to read that you posted because I've heard that before too.

    Israel is a spiritual entity and is be made up of Jews and Gentiles. That is clear.
     
  20. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That error you speak is refuted easily by John 1:11-14:
    11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
    13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


    The scriptures are consistent Doug.
     
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