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The physical descendants of the acient nation of Israel.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Many deny that the scriptures explicitly prophesy a return of the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel to their ancient homeland. But the scriptures indeed teach this, and they teach it repeatedly, and in explicit words. The first such prophecy we should notice in this context is a prophecy unique among God’s prophecies, for it is addressed to neither a nation nor an individual, but to a piece of real estate.

    “Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations.” Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.”’” (Ezekiel 36:6-10)

    The words “the land of Israel”, along with the words “the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys,” leave no way to even imagine that this prophecy is addressed to anything other that the physical homeland of the ancient nation of Israel. But what does this prophecy say about this physical land? “I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.” The words “all of it” added to the words “all the house of Israel” (and yes, the word all is repeated in the Hebrew) makes it exceedingly clear that this means that absolutely all of “the house of Israel” Will again inhabit “the land of Israel”, along with “the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys” of that land. And there is absolutely no way to even pretend that absolutely all of “the house of Israel” has ever returned to their land. So we know this prophecy speaks of a time yet to come.

    One clearly stated scripture is enough to convince anyone who is subject to the authority of the word of God, the Bible. But there are many other scriptures that say the same thing in other ways. A future revival of the physical ancient homeland of the physical ancient nation of Israel is made even more clear by a passage in Ezekiel 47, where we are given a precise definition of the borders of that future land, along with explicit instructions for how it is to be divided. That passage is:

    “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance. This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side. On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side. The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South. The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side. Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance,’ says the Lord GOD.” (Ezekiel 47:13-23)

    Now some very wrongly claim that this is part of a prophetic vision, and therefore its meaning is symbolic, rather than literal. But that is an error. The vision which Ezekiel saw ended in Ezekiel 47:12. From Ezekiel 47:13 to the end of the book of Ezekiel, every statement is explicitly couched in clear, simple language. This was also done in numerous comments interspersed with the vision as it progressed through chapters 43-47. Ezekiel was shown things in a vision, and then was told exactly what they meant. Then he was shown more, and then was again told exactly what the new material meant, often with explicit instructions for actions to be taken when the prophecy was fulfilled. This was done repeatedly as the vision progressed. But that is another subject.

    The land is again explicitly mentioned in Isaiah 65:8-10, where we read, “Thus says the Lord: ‘As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, ‘Do not destroy it, For a blessing is in it,’ So will I do for My servants’ sake, That I may not destroy them all. I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there. Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down, For My people who have sought Me.’” Here Jacob and Judah, two names which are never applied to the church, are said to be heirs “of My Mountains.” It goes on to say they “shall dwell there,” And explicitly names “Sharon” and “the valley of Achor,” two physical places in the land of Israel.

    Again, we read, “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.” (Jeremiah 23:7-8)

    Thus far we have seen that the prophecies refer to the ancient homeland of Israel in explicit language, and also that they just as explicitly say that it will be inhabited by absolutely all of the descendants of this ancient nation. But the scriptures also very clearly state the sequence of events that will bring this to pass. The first of these is the one scripture that explicitly says when they will return. We read:

    “For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many. ‘Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together,’ says the Lord. ‘For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,’ says the Lord, ‘as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,’ says the Lord.” (Isaiah 66:20-21)

    This passage begins with the Lord coming “with fire,” “to render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire,” and then says “it shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations.” So we see that the Lord here refers to Armageddon, and explicitly says that he will send “those among them who escape” to go and declare his glory. Then, it says, “they shall bring all your brethren,” “to My holy Mountain Jerusalem.” So we notice two critical things from this passage. The first of these is that “all your brethren” (and yes, the word all is in the Hebrew text) will be brought back after the Lord has come in power and glory, not before that time. And the second one is that they will be brought back “to my holy mountain Jerusalem.” So the scriptures explicitly tell us that all of them will be brought back at this time. But many among them are rebels, and God cannot have rebels in his presence. So the scriptures explicitly tell us how He will deal with that.

    “‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,’ says the Lord GOD. ‘I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’” (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

    So although there will be rebels among those that will be brought back to the land, God himself will meet them at the border as they arrive, and purge them from among the people. And it explicitly says of these rebels that, “I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel.” But the explicit detail does not end there, for now we read:

    “I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. (Zechariah 12:10-14)

    So now we see that “the spirit of grace and supplication” will be poured upon “the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” and they will repent with grief bitter mourning. But what is it that they are repenting of? “They will look on Me whom they pierced,” and “mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son.” So we see that they will repent of their rejection of Him in his first coming. For, although not even one of them had been there at that time, yet every one of them had participated in his rejection. For we must remember, they are Jews, and all true believers in Jesus have already been raptured at this time. This will be true, whether the rapture takes place pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post trib. For this is after the Lord has come in power and glory, and thus after all those times. The rapture is past and over when this repentance takes place. And the result of this repentance is that:

    “In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious; And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing For those of Israel who have escaped. And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning.” (Isaiah 4:2-5)

    Again, we read of that time, “‘But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,’ says the Lord: ‘I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,’ says the Lord. ‘For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.’” (Jeremiah 31:33-34) This is so important that the Holy Spirit quoted it in Hebrews 8:10-11.

    It is only in the light of these explicit statements of scripture that we can properly understand what the Holy Spirit was saying when He said through the Apostle Paul:

    “For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.’ Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:25-29)

    These numerous prophecies also make our Lord’s meaning clear, where He said, “See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:8-39 and Luke 13:35)

    So we see that the scriptures do indeed tell us, both in explicit language and repeatedly, that the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel will be brought back to their physical ancient homeland. And when they are brought back, the rebels will be purged from their midst and all the rest will repent and turn to the Lord with their whole heart. This is not an interpretation of the meaning of the scriptures. The only “interpretation” here is that the scriptures actually mean what they explicitly say. And this is what they explicitly say, in clear, simple statements, rather than in apocalyptic symbols.
     
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  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Those who refuse to believe these prophecies always imagine that they are just typically speaking of the church. But this assumption cannot explain scriptures such as the following:

    “‘For the Lord has called you Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a youthful wife when you were refused,’ Says your God. ‘For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you. With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,’ Says the Lord, your Redeemer. ‘For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. For the mountains shall depart And the hills be removed, But My kindness shall not depart from you, Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,’ Says the Lord, who has mercy on you. ‘O you afflicted one, Tossed with tempest, and not comforted, Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems, And lay your foundations with sapphires. I will make your pinnacles of rubies, Your gates of crystal, And all your walls of precious stones. All your children shall be taught by the Lord, And great shall be the peace of your children.’” (Isaiah 54:6-13)

    There is no way to even imagine that this speaks of the church, for there has never been a time when the church was refused, nor a time when the Lord hid his fact from the church. But we have already seen that many scriptures clearly state that Israel will again be accepted after her time of rejection is over, as we see again in the following passage:

    “Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. “For I, the Lord, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant. Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, And their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, That they are the posterity whom the Lord has blessed.” (Isaiah 61:7-9)

    But perhaps the clearest statement of this in all of scripture is:

    “Then God said: ‘Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’ Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head; And they shall come up out of the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel!” (Hosea 1:9-11)

    This not only says that their rejection will end. It also explicitly says that this will be declared “in the place where it was said to them. This is so important that the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, quoted it in Romans 9:26, in that chapter’s development of the fact that Israel’s rejection is only temporary, and that it will finally be restored.
     
  3. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Amen.
    There is not even a question of the declaration of the Holy Spirit in bringing Israel back to her Covenant land, and restoring the nation back, to what it was born to be, in the beginning: "sons of the living God", on earth, leading the nations to know God.
     
  4. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Thanks Biblewriter. Your expose' was very concise, and plain; even a child reading this can understand it.
     
  5. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    This interp is also totally in the face of the apostles, because
    *their mission was to the nations, and
    *they wanted Israel out doing that (Israel mostly refused) and
    *Rom 9's 4 quotes of the OT were proof of 9:24's "us...not only from the Jews but also from the nations". How could it be any more clear? Why doesn't BW ever acknowledge why the NT is quoting the OT? I can find OT passages too; big deal. But to read them as the apostles did--that is the work of the Spirit.

    This is BW's legacy: don't answer questions, just bludgeon people with the same texts over and over.

    BW is competely mistaken about which end is up, where things are going, why Israel was in a land to begin with, etc. etc.

    Once again the Mt 23 "until you say 'Blessed is he...'" is misunderstood. This happens any time a Jew sees Christ because thousands already had just done that 2 chapters earlier. No interp of the section (which is really ch 21--25) is complete unless you connect the dots--connect the 2 times Ps 118 is referenced. BWs' is unsatisfactory.

    There is no NT location where the distant future of the land matters; what matters is the 'things for peace' in its own times, which Israel jeopardized, and lost.

    --Inter
     
  6. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Well...let's just pick this apart starting with Ezekiel 36:6-10:

    First...one has know that Israel is in captivity at this time. Judah is not...they are still in the land. This prophecy is fulfilled in the rebuilding done under Ezra and Nehemiah.

    This is why it is critical that you look at all prophesies concerning this! Jeremiah also prophesied about this in Jeremiah 30 and 31...this was clearly the rebuilding before the coming of Christ...read them and see. Jeremiah goes on to prophecy the coming of Christ.

    In dealing with this prophecy it is ESSENTIAL to know Israel had already gone into captivity of Assyria! This was recorded in 2 Kings 17 starting at verse 6…so this restoration Ezekiel is prophesying concerns Israel’s return from Assyria as well as Judah. Also essential is to realize that Babylon (who took Judah captive), also conquered Assryia, so both Israel and Judah were in captivity under Babylon.

    How do we know they returned? Jeremiah prophesied it starting in Jeremiah 30: 1-3:
    The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
    2 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.
    3 For behold, days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.’ The Lord says, ‘I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.’”


    Now this is how you know this refers to the rebuilding under Ezra and Nehemiah! The Kingdom is divided still...so God prophecies of both Kingdoms!!!

    Jeremiah and Ezekiel are prophesying simultaneously...except Ezekiel is already in captivity with Israel, Jeremiah is in Judah. They are prophesying the same thing!

    When Christ was born, Israel was one land! The was no Judah and Israel...only Israel. As God prophesied again through Jeremiah the restoration, as well as the New Covenant through Christ:
    Jeremiah 31:31-33:
    31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
    32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
    33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


    This is the error of what Biblewriter is espousing here!!!

    They were restored! When Jesus was born Israel was in tact and restored as God said! This is GOD'S DECLARATION after the restoration. Notice God only says "THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS!!! The New Covenant comes in through Christ!!!

    They rejected their Messiah in The Lord Jesus Christ! At this point EVERYTHING CHANGES and the *Israel* God is concerned with becomes a spiritual entity! As Jeremiah carefully says...HE SAID ISRAEL BROKE THE COVENANT...so what is the NEW COVENANT??? ALL BELIEVERS!!!

    Jesus said it..."This is the NEW COVENANT in my blood", that New Covenant is very well expalined in John 1 which shows again ISRAEL BROKE THE COVENANT!!!:
    John 1:11
    11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

    That is Israel's rejection!

    Now John 1:12, 13 Brings the New Covenant:

    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
    13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


    So when you understand correctly..."the Children of God" are born of THE SPIRIT.

    Disagree if you want...but CHILDREN OF GOD are BORN OF GOD...it is NO LONGER about Jew or Gentile...IT IS ABOUT THE NEW BIRTH!!! :amen:

    Believe this "two peoples of God" nonsense if you want...IT AIN'T SO!

    How many times do you need to hear Peter say this before you believe it?
    1 Peter 2:9, 10:

    9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
    10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


    This tells you there's only ONE PEOPLE OF GOD!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2013
  7. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is absolutely impossible. Ezekiel 36:10 clearly says that absolutely all of the house of Israel will return. there is absolutely no way to even pretend that this has ever happened, even up to the present time. Ezekiel 36:12 and 14 explicitly say that after that return the land will not devour its inhabitants any more. But the land devoured its inhabitants after that time, with all Jews eventually banished from the land. And Jeremiah 36:15 says that the land will no more bear the shame of the heathen after that time. But the heathen again took full possession of the land after that time.

    This, again, is absolutely impossible Jeremiah 30 and 31 were unquestionably not fulfilled in the return from Babylon. It is about the return of "Israel and Judah." Judah returned from the Babylonish captivity, but Israel never returned from the Assyrian captivity. Not at that time, and not at any other time.

    This is pure nonsense. There has never been a time of unparalleled trouble in Israel, with Israel nonetheless saved out of it, as explicitly stated in jeremiah 30:7-8. there has never been a time when all Israel;s enemies have gone into captivity, and made a spoil to israel, as explicitly stated in Jeremiah 30:16. There has never been a time when a great company of Israel has come from the north country, walking by the rivers, as explicitly stated in Jeremiah 31:8-9. And there has never been a time when all of Israel has come to know the Lord, from the least to the greatest, as explicitly stated in Jeremiah 31:34.

    And you seem to have wholly failed to notice that Jeremiah 31:35-37 says,

    "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."

    While Jesus is indeed called the seed of Abraham, he is not a nation, and this scripture explicitly says that the seed of israel will never cease from being a nation before the Lord for ever.

    The real error here is that you are wholly ignoring the details of what the prophecy explicitly says, and pretending that things happened that did not happen. Your claim that Israel returned from captivity is pure, unadulterated, fiction. There is not a particle of scripture to support such a claim, nor does profane history support it. A pitiful remnant of Judah returned, and that is all.

    This is nothing but gross distortions of the pure word of God. Do you have any idea why the Holy Spirit called them Jews? The word Jew does not mean an Israelite. It means a member of the ancient nation of Judah. You distort both scripture and history.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  8. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    That's not true BW and its not gross. Hebrews is considered by some to be sermon based on Jer 23--33. The restoration was a closed question by that time, and the new covenant opened to another new vision for all mankind.

    I still have not heard: why does there need to be a restoration? You can quote OT passages longer than will fit the page here, but if the NT has a different story and shape to it, so what? it does. It is about people's spiritual lives. Israel being in its land is fine but it has no spiritual significance per se. They can be there as a claim like the Inuit who want to be in certain parts of N. Canada. Fine. But it is not the spiritual "truth as it is in Jesus." That is when a person believes that Christ justifies them from their sins, and nothing else.

    Once again, you don't deal with Gal 3, Eph 3, Acts 13's sermon and the OT quotes supporting it.

    And you have to answer about Rom 9 saying that the 4 quotes are showing the nations come into Israel (the new form). It is not intra-Israel. It is trans-cultural. Plain as you have 2 eyes.

    A NT believer accepts the NT as their authority.

    --Inter
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The problem with your rationale of Israel being restored in Jesus's time is (1) what does restoration actually mean (2) Jesus in Acts 1 indicated a future restoration of the Kingdom of Israel.

    Israel at the time of Jesus was under Roman occupation, and before that the Greeks and break up kingdoms. So Israel was not restored as independent nation. In 1948, Israel reformed in the land as a nation again and is not under any occupation by some other nation. A condition that hasn't been in place since prior to the Babylonian/Assyrian captivities.

    Doug
     
  10. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Not if you *know* who Israel is! Forget 1948...that meant NOTHING!!!
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I acknowledge why the NT quotes the OT. I just deny your distortions of what the NT is saying about the OT.

    To read them as the Holy Spirit intended is indeed the work of the Spirit.

    You are neglecting the fact that this was said to Jerusalem, not to individuals. Your distortion of the meaning of this phrase simply does away with about a third of the inspired word of God.

    The two quotations from Psalm 118 (in Matthew 21:9 and 42) were both pointing out that the OT prophecy being referenced had been literally fulfilled. I am perplexed as to how you see that as even helpful to your argument. The gospels repeatedly cite OT prophecies that were literally fulfilled in the first coming of Jesus. If I remember correctly, they did that in more than fifty places. So your claim that the NT references to the OT apply it spiritually, rather than literally is demonstrably incorrect.

     
  12. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    "some consider" is hardly a convincing argument. I have already demonstrated that utter foolishness of claiming that the restoration prophesied by Jeremiah had already taken place, or has even taken place yet.

    I have answered you on that one, but you do not listen to me, just like you do not listen to the scriptures. The restoration must take place because God has explicitly said it would take place. That is all the reason an unbelieving mind needs.

    For those who believe the word of God, Israel must be restored to keep the ancient promises. And the Millennium must take place because it will be God's final demonstration that mankind will fail under any conceivable situation. God is in the process of demonstrating this seven ways. The first five are finished. The sixth is in process. And the Millennium will be the seventh and final demonstration. or at its end, mankind will again rebel.

    The historical books of the Old Testament also have a different story and shape to them. Different parts of the word of God are about different subjects. but it is pure unbelief to claim that any part of the inspired, holy word of God is set aside by any other part of it.

    A faithful Christian accepts the entire Bible as his authority. Anything else is pure unbelief, and is sin.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You had written.. "They were restored! When Jesus was born Israel was in tact and restored as God said! This is GOD'S DECLARATION after the restoration. Notice God only says "THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS!!! The New Covenant comes in through Christ!!!"

    You are claiming Israel was restored in Jesus's day. What you are not realizing that in Acts 1, the disciples asked Jesus was he going at that time, restore the kingdom to Israel. The Israel that you are claiming restored was not the restored kingdom. Israel was under occupation by foreign powers, the Romans, it was not a kingdom of its own.

    In 1948 Israel became a nation again as an independent state. It is not a pure kingdom yet because Israel is not ruled by a king. The king that the Jews are waiting upon to be king is Messiah ben David.


    Doug
     
  14. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    No Biblewriter. You ignorie the language of scripture, which you often do. Ezekiel 36:10 says:
    10 I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt.

    All this speaks of is God blessing them to re-populate the land. They returned to the land and they rebuilt it. You know this because vs 9 speaks to them being “cultivated and sewn”…basically meaning “back in the land”.

    Jeremiah 36 doesn’t say what you said. Check your reference again.

    What you truly don’t understand is the prophecy has partial fulfillment. Until you get that, you’ll be waiting for something to happen that won’t. Israel was restored to the land. The rest of the prophecy is wrapped in the New Covenant, which Ezekiel tells you of starting at 36:22-32! So you have a partial fulfillment in the restoration to the land, to be further fulfilled under the New Covenant!

    Then check your history, because Israel was pretty populated when Jesus was on earth, the temple was restored, and Jews were in rebuilt cities! Joseph even went to be counted in a census...which us why Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Where did all those Jews come from? Can you say fulfillment?

    Furthermore it is a biblical historical fact that Israel was taken by Assyria, and Judah by Babylon, who took over the Assyrians…so under Babylon both Israel and Judah are captive. Babylon is taken by Medo Persia, we see that in Daniel 5. These are Empires and they dominated the known world. The restoration was ordered under Cyrus Biblewriter...and it applied to all Jews!

    Really? How did Ezra and Nehemiah get back to Israel? It says the were escorted doesn't it? How did all those Jews get back to Israel???

    Furthermore, you are not understanding the passage!!! Jeremiah 31:34 is AFTER the New Covenant!!!

    Again Biblewriter...this is after the New Covenant! Therefore it must be understood IN LIGHT of the New Covenant…“the seed of Israel is ALWAYS CHRIST…so it is ALL BELIEVERS!! That is consistent with what I said. After the New Covenant “Israel” is all believers…again Peter tries to clue you in!

    Again…when you understand the seed is Christ, you might get the message. 1 Peter 2:9. 10 is in order! Peter called us a HOLY NATION…you missed it again! Once again he is speaking to the fact that all believers are the “Israel of God” let me walk you through it in a way you might get it:

    *Chosen race = Spiritual Jew, our hearts are circumcised.
    *Royal Priesthood = Spiritual Levite, we enter the Holy Place through Christ.
    *Holy Nation = Spiritual Israel
    .


    If you notice that those are terms that WERE used specifically to Israel, now being used towards ALL BELIEVERS. Maybe that will help you see the point!

    So again I ask, how was Israel so populated when Jesus walked the earth? How did all those people get back in the land??? Seems to me that you might go back and look at Jeremiah 36:10 “I will multiply them…” as well as read Ezra and Nehemiah. Each time the went back to to Persia more Jews came with them.

    Really? Read Romans 2:28, 29:
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


    Have you any idea why “Holy Spirit inspired” Paul said that? How do I distort what Paul just said...I said???

    I don't distort Biblewriter...I do like Isaiah 28:10 says:
    9 “To whom would He teach knowledge, And to whom would He interpret the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just taken from the breast?
    10 “For He says, ‘Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.’”


    Now lastly…let me point you to Hebrews 8:7-13 as well as Hebrew 10:16, 17…seems to me they’re quoting Jeremiah…and you better do your homework!!! :thumbsup:
     
  15. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    You need to read Acts 1 again...they asked that question...but Jesus didn't answer it Doug:
    Acts 1:6-8
    6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
    8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

    He never answered that because JESUS IS THE KINGDOM Doug. Haven't you read the gospels? When did you ever hear Jesus speak of a kingdom for Israel brother?

    He doesn't...because He is!
     
  16. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Agreed, the question the disciples asked in acts 1 was not about a restoration of natioal mosaic covenant Israel as they would have knwn of the prophecies of its ending. The question was before his ascension and before recieving the holy spirit at the appointed time of pentacost which was one of the "times and seasons" pre-appointed for confirming the everlasting indwelling covt through the fulfilling/replacing of the"times and seasons" established in commemoration of the 40 yr process of the formation of the mosaic covt.

    I believe they were asking if it would be at this very time that a kingdom of peace like Israel the individual knew before the mosaic covt was given and to the sons/daughters of god and of peace. His reply was thst they were not "all" to know ( know meaning experience) all the "times and seasons" pre-appointed BUT, they would recieve power at Pentacost which was the next coming time/season.

    The times and seasons would continue to be replaced/fulfilled through the next 40 yrs and thee believers changed to being the inter/non-natonalists of the everlasting kingdom of grace through faith. (Dan 7) This 40 yr time would have culminated with the believers leaving judea snd other believers not entering into judea after the war against the saints by Nrro/judaism of Dan 7, but before the tribulatiion of the roman invasion and things accompanying it.

    Isaiah 66:7-9 prophecis the leaving after the 40 yr old man-child from judea but before the pains of the result of disbelief came upon those who remained in hopes of the leaders or nation and war.

    “Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such things? 8 Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a mome Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Do I bring to the moment of birth 9 and not give delivery?” says the LORD. “Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says the Lord God.

    So, I believe there is also a sense that the disciples were asking if the kingdom of god/heaven was going to be taken from rabbinic judaism (formed while in babylon) and give tothe belieers in God in Jesus. Though begun with his teaching including the cross and the indwelling, it wouldn,t be openly revealed and established through them (us) as his body/nation till 40 yrs later.
     
  17. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I have it another way.

    I think they where looking for Israel's return to it's peak prosperity under King Solomon when Israel was clearly the world leader and power. They where walking in obedience to God, until Solomon started to fall, and allowed his wives to introduce other gods in the land. Until then, Israel was most prosperous and well respected in the world. We know it went downhill from there.

    This is what the people and disciples had been taught by the Pharisees and scribes. While Christ clearly tried to purge them of such thinking, until they where empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost they didn't really get it. I think they had the very passages Biblewriter is using now in view looking for a physical restoration...but missing the spiritual application of the New Covenant.

    In Acts 1:6-9 Jesus simply told them to start preaching the gospel starting at Jerusalem, all Judea and Samaria, and then to the ends of the earth. Jesus never made mention to them of returning to Jerusalem...then He ascended. Even as Jesus ascended the angels told the disciples nothing more than that Jesus would return in like manner. There was no statement whatsoever of restoration.

    The only kingdoms ever Jesus spoke of was the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of God"

    Just as the Pharisees had it wrong, I believe this futurist position is just as much wrong...and why? Because just as the Pharisees look literally at the future for Israel...the futurist are looking literal at it. It's the dominant teaching of today, and has been since the 1800's.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  18. wordsoflife

    wordsoflife Well-Known Member

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    You don't write about the bible. You write about fairy tales.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus did not answer the way they were expecting, I don't think. The implication is that the kingdom of Israel will be restored just not in their lifetimes. He did not reply that he was the kingdom of Israel restored. I don't know where you are getting that in the above text.

    "Haven't you read the gospels?" I have, but it doesn't appear as though you have. What do you think the messiah, in the minds of the Jews, John the Baptist and the disciples, was supposed to do? Why do you think Herod wanted to kill the baby that the wise men were coming to worship?

    Israel at the time of Jesus was under Roman occupation - do you agree with that much? They were not a restored independent state. Do you agree or not?

    You claim that Israel was a restored at the time of Jesus, but why didn't any of the disciples believe that? Don't you understand that the restoration of the kingdom is that Israel would be an independent state?

    Do you recognize Israel, the present nation, is an independent state - or do you side with the muslims?

    Doug
     
  20. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Doug, the restoration of Israel after the exile was bittersweet from the beginning, from Hag 2. They knew it wasn't the dreamed of restoration. Herod was too ridiculous to consider, a dictator, and a drain.

    It was wonderful thereforer to hear Zecharias in Luke 1 and his realization that someone had just come who would fulfill what the wholesome kingdom was really supposed to be like. All that is fulfilled in Christ, and is said to fulfill the oath to the fathers. The apostles resonate with that, and it so happens it has an immediate application to the conflict with Rome (Lk 13, 19, 21). But Israel mostly did not continue in the mission which would have been the way of peace. The only other option was that of conflict agitated by the Zealots and Judaizers.

    The kingdom is present because of several declarations, and it has a mission. Those who do the work of that mission are now the workers of the Isaianic vineyard (I'm sure you know the vineyard parable is 50% recycled from Isaiah). Mt 21:43. The selfish or fearful workers were nailed, as were the refusers to the banquet (next parable); their city was destroyed. Guess why he expressed it that way!

    --Inter
     
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