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The physical descendants of the acient nation of Israel.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That's just wrong Biblewriter! There is ONLY ONE Abrahamic covenant, and it involves the promise of Isaac as well as the land! It is the same covenant! These two promises to Abraham, from God are in Genesis 15:

    Isaac is promised in 15:4-6:
    4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.”
    5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
    6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.


    The land is promised in verses 7 and 8:
    7 And He said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it.”
    8 He said, “O Lord God, how may I know that I will possess it?”


    God tells Abraham what to do in order to seal the covenant in verses 9-11:
    9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”
    10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds.
    11 The birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away.

    God Himself seals the covenant passing between the sacrifices with a "flaming torch" in verses 17 and 18:
    17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.
    18On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
    “To your descendants I have given this land,
    From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:


    There was only ONE covenant, and it involved Isaac and the land! You make a wrong assertion.
     
  2. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    The thing that was unconditional and absolute about Abrahams covenant was Christ. "I will make him to be a covenant for the peoples" says Isaiah. That's why the land doesn't matter at all to Hebrews. But of course the writer of Hebrews wasn't very smart and didn't know about futurism.

    One of the most useful declarations of the editor of Verdict, R. Brinsmead, was maybe not original but says a world: "Christ was the fulfillment of God's obligations to Israel; he was also the fulfillment of Israel's obligations to God" as in Hebrews quote about "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you have prepared for me."

    The community would not have dare think God was obligated unconditionally if they failed. See the prayer of Dan. 9 (not the prophecy). There had to be a perfect performance on both sides. That was completed by Christ, and that is the Gospel, and that is the ancient but timeless and prophetic flavor of the Gospel that is totally missing here at this forum. Until people realize that event draws everything together into the headship of the historic Christ, we have nothing.

    --Inter
     
  3. Zadok7000

    Zadok7000 Awake and Sober

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    Funny thing is, I bet nearly everyone in this thread is a physical descendant of the House of Israel...
     
  4. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    If you are the seed, coming from the loins of Jacob, then you are a physical descendant of Israel.
    The physical descent of the seed is only through the male. Every single soul born is a seed from the loins of their father, and his father, and his father.... and all go back to Noah, and through him, to Adam, but not every single soul is a seed from the loins of Jacob.
     
  5. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    The Jew comes from the covenant made with Abraham...not before that.

    Abraham was chosen...and God made the Covenant with him in Gen 15.. Naturally all people come from Adam and Eve...but the Jew begins at the Abrahamic Covenant.
     
  6. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    That is not what the Bible states, and you know it.
     
  7. Zadok7000

    Zadok7000 Awake and Sober

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    Even more specifically, I mean of the House of Israel (10 northern tribes).
     
  8. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    It doesn't matter any more. The "doesn't matter" aspect is what the NT is trying to get across. Aaron tithed to Melchizedek! (--Hebrews). Abraham believed before circumcision! We are asked whether we have Abraham's faith, not his lineage. That's in Rom. 4 and Gal. 3.

    If Israel's promises were connected, to the land there would be all kinds of confusion saying that the nations get to share in them. (And I hope I haven't given that impression myself.) But they aren't. That is the transcultural freedom of Eph. 2-3. That is why Eph 3:5 reads as it does. It is completely apart from all the particulars of Judaism including the land.

    I can see why the physical descendants would like to be in that land; isn't that a world-wide movement! But the Christian Gospel disassociates from any lineage, temple, "religion," to keep its transcultural appeal. That appeal is the Christ event. He himself accomplished all that was needed to be accepted by God for all mankind, for all times. Ie, he justifies us from our sins so we can have fellowship with God.

    --Inter
     
  9. timur123456789

    timur123456789 Newbie

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    Bible is a spiritual Book and it talks about spiritual events or states.
    Therefore every place in the Bible which speaks of Jews or the people of God Christians are meant. For the Word teaches us that the followers of Christ are his FAMILY now:

    48 But answering, He said to the one speaking to Him, Who is My mother? And who are My brothers?
    49 And stretching out His hand to His disciples, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers.
    50 For whoever does the will of My Father in Heaven, that one is My brother and sister and mother.
    (LITV Mt.12:48-50)

    These who do the will of The Father in Heaven are the Family of Christ and therefore in the spiritual sense also can be called Jews or the people of God.
     
  10. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    The Seed is Christ. This is the passion and mechanism that makes Gal 3 "work" or fall flat. You should not be navigating eschatology until you know Gal 3 forward and backward.

    --Inter
     
  11. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    The description BW has in the quote 2 posts above is correct but is not about the future. It is essentially what happened in "this generation" following Jesus, in 66+.

    Whether there is a replication of this in the future is far from clear. It could be. But many, many conditions would have to change from the situation on the ground today.

    Meanwhile, the earth as we know it almost ended 2 years ago due to a CME. See the thread "Intense Heat". Ie, the solar situation we find ourselves in now is essentially what 2 Pet 3 says is the/our future. No Judaic particulars.

    --Inter
     
  12. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Yes it does! You need to pay attention to the scriptures. Have you ever read John. The Jews KNOW they start from Abraham!

    Let me point it out to you:
    The Jews came to John the Baptist for baptism...what is it John The Baptist said to them? :
    Matthew:3:7-9:
    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;
    9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

    You see? Jews know that's where they begin...at Abraham!

    The Jews contended with Jesus in John 8...what did they say to Jesus?
    John 8:39
    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.

    When Stephen gave his sermon to the Jews in Acts 7, rehearsing the history of the Jews, where did he start? He started at Abraham:
    Acts 7:2, 3:
    2 And he said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,
    3 and said to him, ‘Leave your country and your relatives, and come into the land that I will show you.’

    I'll rest my case right there. :thumbsup:
     
  13. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    You don't have a case. The physical "House of Israel" is the physical seed of Jacob's loins. You have no case.
     
  14. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    What's really sad about this, is it is you who said "read the scripture" and then you don't accept the scripture.

    So you take it up with God...because God told Abraham "In Isaac shall your seed be."

    Then he has the Apostle Paul write in Galatians 3:29 "If you be in Christ you are Abraham's seed"

    Now...you can agree with the scripture, or be "stiff necked" as so many Jews have been.

    That's your choice!
     
  15. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    What does Gen 49: 1-10 ssy about the latter dayd pf Jacobs loins and their genetic purpose? Who is Shiloh?
     
  16. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    I dont see any foundation for a repeat to the " world". Just because the interpreters used the word "world" for age or world that they knew, doesn,t mean that god has to follow after their errors or our musunderstanding of them. No where that I know of speaks of the end of creation; including 2 Peter 3 which I believe is extracted from Deut 32:22 and perhaps Usaiah 51 & 66.

    In Gen 5:26 I believe it is; it says lamach named him noah because he would eze their toil due to the ground that the lord had cursed. Thus the floid removed the curse in the earth iutside of the garden, making the whole earth (parts of ut) as a garden.

    I believe lamach, Noah, and the 3 sons were foretypes of Gods expression of the tri-unity. Noah effected a new heaven and earth, just as Christ brought new heavens (ordinances, statutes and laws) AND Earth (domain) effecting the end of the 'curse' of the garden law through the seed promised thriugh the woman. (Gal 4:1-4). And He and the new (everlasting) laws effected the end of the mosaic covt which he had established. Barnabus mentioned that this was why they met on the 8th day; in celebration of the new beginning!!!
    8 in the Ark, 8th day circumcision, 8th celebration of new life

    Christ thus lifted the garden law (individual) and the condemnatiiion of mosaic law.( corporal conditional appeasement).

    However,some parts of our future is in the hands of the people who reside on it and in particular, those who reside in the kingdom and entrusted with his truths. The preaching of the end of / remaking of the earth, failing kingdom/King and a few other doctrines need re-valuated. The everlasting kingdom of the Creator of life ( and of eternal life) is not the church /religion off Ireneous

    Christ thus lifted the garden law (individual) and the condemnatiiion of mosaic law.( corporal conditional appeasement).
    (
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You should not be navigating eschatology until you decide to believe everything the Bible says.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Do you agree that Benjamin Netanyahu is a physical descendant of Israel?

    Doug
     
  19. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re repeat:
    that is only in reference to the calamity described in Dan 9 and Mt 24 & //s which are about the 1st century.

    The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 was a repeat of that of 486 but for very different reasons and involving different characters. I think it would be odd for this to happen a 3rd time since Luke (actually Paul through Luke) was so emphatic about it being the finale destruction in 70, fulfilling all punishment since the beginning of Israel.

    --Inter
     
  20. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re navigating eschatology:
    you have to go by the ordinary passages that are the making the widest-sweeping statements. Gal 3, Eph 2-3 would be bumping the cieling on that.

    Basic Protestant interp principles:
    the NT interps the OT
    ordinary, didactic passages interp symbolic
    complete treatments interp incidental references
    the letters interp the gospel accounts
    --B. Ramm,
    (taught to me in a conservative D'ist college, but not kept! Especially the first)

    Until BW mentions a particular item from Gal. 3 (which is what I referenced in the post), I have no idea what he means, and I don't think he does either, although it is always good to vent frustration.

    --Inter
     
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