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The physical descendants of the acient nation of Israel.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Not the point Doug...where does scripture ever say Israel will be a restored kingdom? The fact is it doesn't. All it says is they will be restored to the land...nothing about a kingdom the ONLY kingdom spoken of by Jesus is the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of God"...nothing of a kingdom for Israel.

    Since when does it matter what the Jews thought Doug? Jesus came as the kingdom...he even told them so when they challenged Him about casting out demons in Matt 12;28:
    28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Jesus IS the kingdom! What do you end your prayer with? If you pray in the model of the Lord's Prayer it's with "For YOUR'S is the kingdom, power and glory, forever and ever amen."

    So what Jew thought is irrelevant...Jesus was setting the record straight and they didn't accept it.

    Also Herod sought to kill Jesus because he felt threatened...he was a tool of Satan...havent you read Revelation 12:3, 4:
    3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
    4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

    That what that was about.

    Of course I recognize Israel as an independent state. But what does that matter? When you get it that God's concern is the "Israel of God" you'll understand. It's all through the NT only as you have been taught to ignore it, or you choose to ignore it. Obviously in there remains to be an outpouring of God's spirit on the Jews and that is clearly God's mercy towards them as Paul says of them in Romans 11:32:
    32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

    I didn't say Israel was a "restored kingdom". I sad they were restored to the land because that's all God gave through the prophets.

    What you really have to look at in the NT, is that everything Jesus says of the kingdom is is the "spiritual kingdom". That is the kingdom we are in now, and it comes to final fulfillment on the last day.
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The kingdom you are speaking of is not the restored kingdom of Israel.

    Doug
     
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I think that's the point with what I said here:
    Can you show where Israel is said to be a restored kingdom?
     
  4. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    I acknowledge you response, but dont find any support. Their eyes had been opened as he taught them on the beach. Additionally they were without the ark to accomplish the law of moses. It may be as you say, or they may have been asking about dan 7. Either way, I believe Jesus' answer was referring to the mannerant time mentioned above, the formation of the associated kingdom within the believers and followers of the lamb.

    You gave me something to think about and perhaps I did ypu alsp.
    I think were in agreement that Jesus' answer and abcense of correction didn't imply a future kingdom of the manner you suggest wss asked. That is another reason I think the disciples question regarded Israel as the children of personal faith in him, not Moses.

    They did have s 3 1/2 yr learning period to embrace the concepts of their becoming his representstives spsrt from mossic law and tradition
    Now it may be that it didn't sink in til pentacost; or just that they were given accompanying signs to preach with power and boldness. Peters first sermon included tje prophecy of the new_ prophet who would speak the very words of God (justification by faith) snd to whom the people were to listen and believe upon or risk being cut off from among the people.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  5. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Read the Word. All of the Word.
    Believe the Word, all of the Word.
    Believe Jesus.

    Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power....


     
  6. Ebed

    Ebed Member

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    "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

    However, in Hebrew, this verse is more profound in understanding how ALL FAMILIES of the earth would be "blessed" through the seed of Abraham.

    In Hebrew, the phrase in Genesis (Bereishit) 12:3 that reads in English as "And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" is written:

    "Ve nivrecu bekah kol mishpachot ha-adamah."

    The Hebrew word "nivrecu" is translated in most English texts as "be blessed." However, the usual Hebrew word for "be blessed" is not nivrecu. It is yivrecu. The word "nivrecu" is the "niphal" conjugation of the Hebrew word, barak. The Hebrew word barak has a deeper meaning than just "blessed." The simplest Hebrew meaning of the word barak is blessing which invokes the G-d of Israel’s presence, favor or choice in a given situation. Jewish prayers (house of Judah)begin with the phrase, "Baruk atah Adonai…" which in English is "Blessed are you, Lord…" and reflects the idea that "blessed" is related to being "chosen" or "favored" by the G-d of Israel.

    " In the Orthodox Jewish ArtScroll Tenakh Series, Volume 1, page 432, it is written:

    There is … an opinion shared by Rashbam [to Genesis 28:14], Chizkuni, Da’as Zekeinum, and quoted by Tur that the verb (ve nivrecu) in Genesis 12:3 is related to the root barak as in the Mishnaic term mavreek meaning to "intermingle or graft." [cf Kelaim 7:1, Sotah 43a.] As Heidenheim explains it, this interpretation is inspired by the fact that nowhere else besides here do we find barak in the sense of blessing in the niphal conjugation, while in the sense of "grafting" it is common in that form.

    Waytozion.org

    Therefore, based upon this insight of the Hebrew language by respected Hebrew scholars within the house of Judah (Judaism),

    Genesis (Bereishit) 12:3 is better understood to be
    translated as: "And in thee shall all families of the earth nivrecu [be grafted or intermingled]."

    The only PHYSICAL way ALL FAMILIES of the earth would be nivrecu
    intermingled) is by the seed of Abraham (Avraham) being assimilated into EVERY FAMILY of the earth.

    How does the Bible explain that this happened? Abraham (Avraham) had a son named Isaac (Yitzchak) who had a son named Jacob (Ya’acov) whose named was changed to Israel. Jacob (Ya’acov) had twelve sons who became head of the twelve tribes of Israel. Following the reign of king Solomon (Shlomo), the kingdom of Israel was divided into Northern Kingdom (house of Israel) and Southern Kingdom (house of Judah). The judgment of the Northern Kingdom (house of Israel) as recorded by the prophet Hosea in Hosea chapter 1 was that the Northern Kingdom (house of Israel) would be assimilated into all families of the earth in fulfillment of the G-d of Israel’s promise to Abraham (Avraham) that his seed would be in all families of the earth.
     
  7. Ebed

    Ebed Member

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    "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

    However, in Hebrew, this verse is more profound in understanding how ALL FAMILIES of the earth would be "blessed" through the seed of Abraham.

    In Hebrew, the phrase in Genesis (Bereishit) 12:3 that reads in English as "And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" is written:

    "Ve nivrecu bekah kol mishpachot ha-adamah."

    The Hebrew word "nivrecu" is translated in most English texts as "be blessed." However, the usual Hebrew word for "be blessed" is not nivrecu. It is yivrecu. The word "nivrecu" is the "niphal" conjugation of the Hebrew word, barak. The Hebrew word barak has a deeper meaning than just "blessed." The simplest Hebrew meaning of the word barak is blessing which invokes the G-d of Israel’s presence, favor or choice in a given situation. Jewish prayers (house of Judah)begin with the phrase, "Baruk atah Adonai…" which in English is "Blessed are you, Lord…" and reflects the idea that "blessed" is related to being "chosen" or "favored" by the G-d of Israel.

    " In the Orthodox Jewish ArtScroll Tenakh Series, Volume 1, page 432, it is written:

    There is … an opinion shared by Rashbam [to Genesis 28:14], Chizkuni, Da’as Zekeinum, and quoted by Tur that the verb (ve nivrecu) in Genesis 12:3 is related to the root barak as in the Mishnaic term mavreek meaning to "intermingle or graft." [cf Kelaim 7:1, Sotah 43a.] As Heidenheim explains it, this interpretation is inspired by the fact that nowhere else besides here do we find barak in the sense of blessing in the niphal conjugation, while in the sense of "grafting" it is common in that form.

    Waytozion.org

    Therefore, based upon this insight of the Hebrew language by respected Hebrew scholars within the house of Judah (Judaism),

    Genesis (Bereishit) 12:3 is better understood to be translated as: "And in thee shall all families of the earth nivrecu [begrafted or intermingled]."

    The only PHYSICAL way ALL FAMILIES of the earth would be nivrecu intermingled) is by the seed of Abraham (Avraham) being assimilated into EVERY FAMILY of the earth.

    How does the Bible explain that this happened? Abraham (Avraham) had a son named Isaac (Yitzchak) who had a son named Jacob (Ya’acov) whose named was changed to Israel. Jacob (Ya’acov) had twelve sons who became head of the twelve tribes of Israel. Following the reign of king Solomon (Shlomo), the kingdom of Israel was divided into Northern Kingdom (house of Israel) and Southern Kingdom (house of Judah). The judgment of the Northern Kingdom (house of Israel) as recorded by the prophet Hosea in Hosea chapter 1 was that the Northern Kingdom (house of Israel) would be assimilated into all families of the earth in fulfillment of the G-d of Israel’s promise to Abraham (Avraham) that his seed would be in all families of the earth.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is right in the text of Acts 1. The disciples asked Jesus if he was going to restored the kingdom of Israel at that time. So obviously it had already not been restored at the time.
    Again, the restored kingdom of Israel is Israel that isn't occupied by foreign powers. The disciples were already in the land. So being in the land is not what they were talking about.

    Because the Jews understood that God was going to send them a messiah to be their king of Israel from the lineage of David. Messiah means anointed. Kings and priests were anointed. The kingdom of God is separate from the kingdom of Israel.

    I don't know what bible verse you are referring that says Jesus is the kingdom. Jesus is king of the kingdom of God. Israel is not the kingdom of God. If it were, it would not need to be restored.
    What the Jews thought was relevant because it verifies that the kingdom of Israel was not restored in their day.

    Herod is not mentioned in Revelation 12. Why aren't you using quotes out of the four gospel of why Herod wanted Jesus killed at birth? Herod was worried that Jesus would become king and as the messiah he would restore Israel to being independent.

    "Israel of God" is not in my bible. What passage do you find the term "Israel of God" ?
    The issue though is the restored kingdom, not restored to the land. The disicples were already in the land, 1st century. But they were not an independent kingdom.

    The issue the disciples were asking about in Acts 1 is the restored kingdom of Israel. They were not questioning about a spiritual kingdom of Israel.

    The facts are that Israel has become an independent nation again, in 1948. It is a prerequisite for the end times prophecies to be fulfilled.

    Doug
     
  9. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Doug, that means nothing. How many wrong questions did the disciples ask? Too many! You still have not pointed to one scripture that says Israel will be restored as a kingdom.

    So next question...who was it that tried to stone Christ for saying He was Messiah...and ultimately crucified Him? I'm sure you know the answer...so now tell me...with all the wrong views of scripture Jesus said they had...why would I even look at scripture from their perspective???

    I gave you Matthew 12:28:
    28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you

    Now unless I read that wrong...Jesus is saying what He does in casting out demons means He is the kingdom of God. He is the express representative of the kingdom of God because you can't get there except it be through Christ!

    Very poor response Doug...think about it. Herod killed how many children trying to kill Jesus? But you choose to ignore Rev 12 when it clearly says it's Satan trying to devour the child? Ok...fine.

    Well here it is KJV,,,Gal 6:16:
    16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    But that's what they didn't understand...but they clearly did after Pentecost.

    Now the epistles tell you in many ways it's spiritual but you don't see it...but we've been down this road Doug. There's no need to do it again.
     
  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    What about converts to Judaism? Is genetic ancestry the defining characteristic of the b'nei Y'srael?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  11. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    ruth???
     
  12. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I do. Can you show ONE passage with Jesus saying the kingdom would be restored to Israel? That one, doesn't say that.

    Did you read Acts:1:3? :
    To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

    There will be no kingdom coming for Israel! Jesus told them of the kingdom of God. That kingdom will be on earth on THE LAST DAY.

    Listen to these passages:

    1 Cor 15:25:
    24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

    Revelation 11:15
    15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
    “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

    Jesus doesn't answer the disciples...He basically told them "none of your business... GO PREACH". You have no point.

    Isn't that interesting? Jesus said NOTHING of the kingdom restoring to Israel...and you know why? Because the only kingdom to come will be of God. That is all believers....it will be delivered to God, By Jesus, on the LAST DAY!

    You're not allowing the scriptures to interpret themselves.
     
  13. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re kingdom on last day:
    Last day? It is a current reality. It is seen by faith. It is not perfect by any means, and even with the disciples, questions came up about whether to 'eliminate' certain people (look who is asking!). The ideal is for it to fill the whole world, and if it is hard to see that it is because of the machinery of the Left and its media! But it does not just show at the last day.

    Mt 21:43 for ex. It has been taken away from Israel per se and given to anyone (includng Jews) who will produce its fruit.

    The kingdom exists in the proclamation of the Gospel, so that the event and the preaching of it share as signs of its power (Rom 16:25), so that all nations might believe and obey.

    It has nothing to do with the land of Israel, nor did it as discussed in Acts (which is more important for us since we are on the same side of the resurrection as the apostles).

    --Inter
     
  14. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    That'd be a pretty classic example of a convert.

    Which is sort of my point, the title speaks about the "physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel", but it was never about bloodlines or genetics; but covenant and relationship when it came to God's People.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  15. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    So were the greeks,Romand,assyrians , erc assimilated into "israel" or were the isrselites assimilated into the ethos?

    In the prophecy of Hosea 1, at the end of the chapter, it says that in the place they were called NOT the children of God, there (outside of the mosaic covt land) they shalll be called the SONS of the living GOD. ( John 1:12,13) The nest verse affirms that they will come up out of the mossic covt contractual land and appoint themselves one head. See also Gen 49:10 where the coming together under Shiloh ( one head) occurs at the time of the latter end of the effect and purpose of the sons of Jacob. Is Moses and his words the Shiloh and "Him", or is Jesus and his words

    Isnt this what paul is writing about to the thesslonians in 2 Thess 2:1. I belueve it is and i belueve this was fulfilled when the believers left judea and jerusalem as the Romsn armies were entering and before..

    There is another place where the people of humanity ingeneral were temporarily called NOT the children of God. Do you know where that is and how they were also called the sons of the luving god in that location, outside of the mosaic covt contractual land also?

    This discussion touches the same point that paul proved in romans 3,4 and Gal 3 snd again in Rom 9.; that being that thepromise does not regard the physical seed, but the fulfillment of the foretypes which they prophecied and spiritual laws confirmingly established. (Ps 105:1-10; Abe, Isaac, Jacob/Israel representing Father, only begotten son, Indwlling spirit of Father through justification by faith in the authority and person of the Son)

    Was it in circumcision (related to physical offspring) or in uncircumcision, related to all humanity. Isnt this the ssme promise to come through Eve (gal 4:1-4) to all living and the later passed through Noah as my civenant ??

    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  16. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Re: last day.

    I agree with Inter.

    See the context of John 6 regarding who is being "raised up" vs the son of perdition.
    What could the 'last day' refer to in the context of Jesus' resurrection and retu.rn to them?

    could it be the last day of the law of sin/ death and faer of death through the confirmation (additional confirmation) of Jesus' affirmation by God of being declared not guilty of blasphemy when he declared that the fsther was in him and he in the Father? He who has seen ( percieved ) me has seen the Father.

    I believe there was a individual 'last day' and a associated ' last day at his revealing and that both are past. But, I believe there are doctrinal errrors stemming from the ECFs ( including the still yet uture last day and the need to remake the earth) which hinder peace? Live and all good stuff on earth as it is in heaven.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  17. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Well...let's not forget that if your saved, you're in the kingdom also, as we are reigning with Christ now.

    Proclaiming the gospel and serving our Lord is our role in the kingdom until it's ultimately fulfilled in Christ return. We have been sealed!
     
  18. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    the promise abuot the Seed was never that it would be in all the nations. "All the nations will be blessed in your (Abraham's) Seed." Another reason to read Gal. 3, and see why futurism has to cut Gal. 3 to go on.

    --Inter
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You are forgetting that there were two covenants made with Abraham. The one referred to in Galatians 3 is the covenant of Genesis 17. The land covenant is in Genesis 15.

    Futurism most absolutely does not cut out, leave out, or ignore even one passage of scripture anywhere. The only ones who do that are the ones who cut out all the Old Testament prophecies under the false pretension that they were set aside because Israel failed.

    But God repeatedly and very clearly said that absolutely nothing could ever interfere with the fulfillment of these promises. They were unconditional and absolute.
     
  20. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    yes, that's why out of the approx. 2 million people that began the Exodus, only two individuals were not killed off during it...every one else was
     
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