The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role

[Bobber]

Christ is the head, and as He said "I will build my church". We all need to trust in Jesus working in the believers more.

Much appreciated Loftruth is you could respond to my questions in post #171.
Thanks.

 

[PloverWing]

At times a home meeting would meet with another home meeting among the churches we planted. The two meetings came together in a rich brothers home. It had a large sunken living room and lots of seating, we had about 70 or more believers there and a large meal. The ministry of edification was able to function wonderfully in this meeting. But it was a large house.

Wow, that's a much group than I imagined -- and a much larger house!

How does worship in a large group like this work, in practice? You've said that the idea is that there's no leader, that everyone offers their own message, song, etc. Do each of the 70 people in attendance speak during the meeting? Do you have some way of making sure that everyone's been heard from, that no single person or group of people dominates the conversation? Do you break up into smaller groups during the evening, so that conversation is easier, or do you stay in one large group?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Wow, that's a much group than I imagined -- and a much larger house!

Hello and God bless

How does worship in a large group like this work, in practice?

The same as in a smaller home as we wait on the Lord and consider others and edification in Christ.we also had a large meal that day.many people brought food. The large table looked like a feast.

You've said that the idea is that there's no leader,

We seek Christ as our head, and there is no one leader but many elders.

that everyone offers their own message, song, etc.

Not everyone has to speak in every meeting but they are free to. We have many prayers, songs, testimony, teachings and revelations. It is wonderfull.

Do each of the 70 people in attendance speak during the meeting?

No, but they could. We are aware to be sensitive to the Spirit. Those who have a leading or word or song or prayer or whatever they bring to the meeting can edify in Christ. I found over the years that there is anywhere from two or three main messages and others often build on those. It’s at best a large message with many edifying together in it.

Do you have some way of making sure that everyone's been heard from,

We are generally quiet as the person is ministering or testifying or teaching ir having a revelation etc.

that no single person or group of people dominates the conversation?

This is hoped for. Sometimes a brother might have a longer message but we seek to listen and be patient. As we are all often excited about the Litd and the gathering of the saints sone can share a bit much fir others to grasp it all. But generally we seek to edify.

Do you break up into smaller groups during the evening, so that conversation is easier, or do you stay in one large group?

We stay as a body together even the children are there.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do you therefore have a web site people can refer to.

No I don”t

I have in times past looked at Chruch Without Walls site. Steve Atkerson, elder of NTRF have a site. I too, watched some of their videos years ago. Still see they have it. I'm guessing you know of these individals.

Yes, I met Steve and talked a good while with him. He is a likeable person and a family man friendly and gracious. We didn’t agree on sone things but could still maintain the unity of peace.
I met him when visited the house church conference in South Carolina . I drive all the way down there with another brother.

That's pretty significant. So when you get too large you make another group?

Generally yes that would be the goal and to hopefully have a house of peace where others could gather.

Maybe a math thing wouldn't apply here but if you had 400 over 18 years...that means around 22 new different people a year? I assume you're talking about a family with children one family could average 5 people. So how did all that play out? Seems like a lot coming and going or not staying too long?

We also preached on the streets everywhere and met many as we preached and shared to gospel.
Sone would come for a while and others would stay.

So one thing I'd really like to know. According to 1 Cor there can be times where one is to be removed from a fellowship. Some might call it church discipline. 1 Cor 5 it speaks of open immorality without remorse or repentance. The gathering of believers (the church in Corintihans) wouldn't deal with it. We can assume their reasoning was they wanted to have a reputation for being a LOVING church.....but Paul asked them don't you know a little leaven can spoil the whole lump?

Yes, we follow such order.

At one time we had false brethren among us and one large strong man withstood us dragging others away down the hall to try and sway them against us. He would say strange things in the meeting as he boasted he would say that he touched another brother on the head and they became a Christian. Strange things like that. I withstood him face ti face in the Lord and questioned him, he then left the meeting. He was brought there initially by another brother. When I met him outside the meeting before he came to the home , I did not feel right about him in my spirit. But we met him in the meetings anyway . He didn’t come back after he was confronted and but he did drew away another brother with him.

One day I got a call from that other brother who I had known for a while . He asked me to come to his home where the false brother and he were. He tried to set up some fleshly challenge to try and cast out devils from a possessed man they had brought with them. He wanted to see who was of the Lord as the false person was swaying him. I warned him and said such things are spiritually dangerous and fleshly. It didn’t seem like my brother as he spoke. He sounded different.
Then, one night as I was praying I had a vision of this brother who challenged me to cast out devils from a possessed man. I saw him as a wild horse attacking me physically but a fence came up and he couldn’t hurt me. I was startled by that because my brother was a gentle man for the most part and would never do that.

Then at our next meeting in the home I heard that he was at the door coming to the meeting. I then for sone reason fell to my knees and prayed. As I opened the door, I saw that my brother wasn’t my brother. He was possessed and acted very strange he had an old Bible in his hands but wrapped up in a dirty cloth. I exported him for his pride and fleshly word and said I did not want to let him come in. He turned briefly as if he was going away then suddenly turned to face me his eyes raging and with a demonic cry attacked me pushing his way into the home as he pounded me on my shoulders with his fist. I was pushed down a bit and trying to hold him at the door. Then, the power of the Lord filled me and I stood up and rebuked him in the Amir’s, the spirit that was in him looked terrified and rushed past me into the home standing there with fist up saying, “I’m in I’m in”. The demon then threatened me and tried to strike me . It was strange I saw it come in slow motion towards my face and just moved aside. The demon in my brother (not my friend John) then threatened to go after my wife as well and taunted me to use my martial arts. I knew this was not a physical one but a spiritual one I do not give into the flesh. I then pointed my hand towards him and said “in the name of Jesus Christi I command you to leave him “ something along those words. At that moment he changed his stance we could see the demon leaving him fir his whole expression changed and his voice and tone, he was then passive and sat down. My wife had called the police to have him removed. I did not press charges I just let him be escorted from the home.
It seems that the demon possessed man they contacted and they tried in their flesh to cast the demons out backfired and they had demons jump all over them.

After that I was very grieved, and wept. I loved my brother John and had known him for a while. But the Lord put in my heart to hand him over to Satan in prayer as in 1 Corinthians 5, similar. I also when gathered with the body and told this and we all prayed as one body for him and the other man to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved.
A short time after that we had reports of these two, my brother John abd the other fakes man. We heard that they were sick and seeing demons sone reported that they were even cutting thier forheads and vomiting.

I never saw the other fakes man but I did see my brother John a few years after that. He came in a coffee shop I was in fellowshipping with other brothers. He seemed repentant but was nervous. We did not connect after that.

The stories of church discipline and addressing those in the meeting are too long for this talk.

I think this i what people wonder about home churches. An impression is left no one is in charge and its a very democratic type of place.....or you seek a consensus. So how or who does the talking to the one who doesn't repent. Do you actually choose to remove someone from the fellowship? Have you actually told anyone not to come back unless..............

As scripture speaks of the overseers should be able by sound doctrine to exhort and convince the gainsayers.

But we are told to withdraw from those who walk disorderly and who cause divisions and offended contrary to the doctrine. We are not to eat with certain brothers who are in certain sinscopenly as 1 Cor 5 speaks and we are not to let sone into our home if they bring another gospel or do not hold the doctrine of Christ as John speaks of .

They will not be able to come among us if we are all in agreement. Also we follow Matthew 18 as a whole church issue with a brother who doesn’t repent.

 

[hislegacy]

The wealthy believers had larger homes.Corinth was a wealthy city and many large homes there.

Except it is not a house. It is a church building. Confirmed through archeology.

To say otherwise it to deny reality.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Except it is not a house. It is a church building. Confirmed through archeology.

To say otherwise it to deny reality.

No there is no such thing as a “church” building, in scripture. The church Christ is building is made of living stones and the body of Christ.

Prove your dates and times and show what building you are refering to historically I gave info about the first house to be opened up and the picture you sent was , from what I could see a stock photo of the region.

We need dates and times here and lots of info on this so called “church building”

The early church and in Corinth met in homes as I can bring many scriptures to show.

 

[hislegacy]

Prove your dates and times and show what building you are refering to historically I gave info about the first house to be opened up and the picture you sent was , from what I could see a stock photo of the region.

You gave ZERO information on the picture of the church at Ephesus, which shows amphitheater style seating and the remains of an altar. Just saying people had big homes is no facts whatsoever. You gave an assumption, not based on history or substantiated facts, not information.

It is in places, a stock photo from the areological site of the church in Corinth from the first century. The buildings I am referring to are the physical church building from Ephesus and Corinth. Both well documented as such, both spoken of in scripture, both places contain amphitheater style seating as shown. Archala Korinthos is a bus ride from Athens. I minister in Athens, Thessaloniki and Albania once a year. I can tell you from first hand witness these things are true, established and accurate.

Just because you do not believe it, doesn't change the reality of what they were and are. Sorry if it flies in the face of your beliefs - but it is what it is.

So far every piece of Exegetical, academic, archeology with photographic evidence has been denied and the replies don't seem to be much more than a mishmash of unrelated scripture expressed and run on sentences.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Just to clarify here: In your house churches, if one or two of the elders were in error, they could be corrected by the rest of the people in the congregation. Is that correct?

yes

 

[LoveofTruth]

You gave ZERO information on the picture of the church at Ephesus, which shows amphitheater style seating and the remains of an altar. Just saying people had big homes is no facts whatsoever. You gave an assumption, not based on history or substantiated facts, not information.

Lets deal with one bit of misinformation at a time. I was addressing the Corinthian issue first.

And i did give some information on the earliest evidence of house churches found. if you read my post again.

Also now we are going to disagree on historical evidence which is not scripture. This gets muddier because I can show that the earliest recorded so called church was a house church in Megiddo Israel, then we find another in Dura-Europos house church) is the earliest identified Christian house church. These were just homes of the time.

"Megiddo church, near Tel Megiddo, Israel, is an archaeological site which preserves the foundations of one of the oldest church buildings ever discovered by archaeologists, dating to the 3rd century AD.[1] The ‘Megiddo Church’, as the room became known, was dated to circa 230 AD on the basis of pottery, coins, and the inscriptional style.[2][3][4] The site’s abandonment, circa 305 AD, is evident in the purposeful covering of the mosaic, and relates well to the crisis of 303 AD, when the Christian communities of Judea[5] experienced the Diocletianic Persecution.[6]

But you say I gave no information about wealthy homes being used for the believers, Here is some,

In Acts 17 we see Jason able to receive the brethren and historians believe he was wealthy, He was also able to post a type of bail for himself and others. Which could imply he was wealthy. We also read of "the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house" and of "entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed." and of "unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house: " etc.

It can safely be assumed that to have a house to house others in the church they would be somewhat wealthy.

It is in places, a stock photo from the areological site of the church in Corinth from the first century.

this is not the so called building then, just a stock photo of the area. That is deceptive in my mind, show the exact pictures of the so called "Church building ( which is an error according to scripture the church is the living body of Christ, even the word "church" means a called out assembly).Show also the exact dates and info on what was "assumed" about it

Also, this is an important thing to understand here. The believers met mostly in homes for the functioning of the church in scripture, this can easily be proved. But they can also meet in a larger place or even in a park for a time or a hall etc, as long as they can face each other and have mutual edification freely and a meal together etc. It is not the exact location itself that makes a functioning church. But we can see the wisdom of God in leading the apostles to meet in homes. Even when Jesus taught the apostles how to do this he sent them out and when they found the house of peace he said to stay there. That would be used as a base to bring others in the future.

But if the place they meet is too big, like there is thousands at one time and they are mostly facing the back of each others heads with all attention on the one man on a stepped altar elevated where he is exalted over all and is given a flattering title, such as his holiness or president or Master of divinity etc, then that is wrong and not according to the functioning of a church and God's commands in scripture. It doesn't matter where you find a building or men in history who are over all. That does not justify to go against the commands of God in scripture, which I can show again if you want.

The buildings I am referring to are the physical church building from Ephesus and Corinth.

This expression you use the "physical church buildings". Is nowhere in scripture or for the first long period after the death of Christ. This so called "church buildings" is contrary to the church that Jesus is building.

The church according to scripture is the house of God a spiritual house made of living stones. It is also called the body of Christ with Christ as the head and members as part of that vody. The word "church" means a called out assembly. Not a physical building. The church that jesus s building loses its understanding and purpose and function if we focus on a man made building of brick and mortar as the church in any way. I don't even like to use the expression "house church" because some might misunderstand and say the house is the church, "the church which meets in their house" is the biblical understanding.

these are very basic things I marvel that some miss them.

Both well documented as such, both spoken of in scripture,

No we haven't seen your documentation and the exact dates and pics and why they were called a church, and if they were simply a well to do home of the day.I wait for this "documentation".

both places contain amphitheater style seating as shown. Archala Korinthos is a bus ride from Athens. I minister in Athens, Thessaloniki and Albania once a year. I can tell you from first hand witness these things are true, established and accurate.

still no proof of the early church not meeting in homes for a long time. Just you saying it is so is not proof. The building of todays large castle like temple structures came much later around the time of Constantine. I can show history about this. This affected the church greatly and not in a good way. Most historians agree that the early church met primarily in homes.This is historical as i have seen. But some in zeal to justify their religious forms try to say different. Even if we found a group after the death of the apostle Paul that decided to make a temple type of structure and have ritual and a one man over all, that would contradict the order God gave the church in scripture and i would not listen to such men. I am commanded in scripture to not put any man above that which is written.

You and I both know that you will not find a so called "church building" anywhere in the new testament that Christ is building. The word church is ,

ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly,"

Just because you do not believe it,

you have proven nothing and as i said i don't follow those much later than Paul who went away from God's order

doesn't change the reality of what they were and are. Sorry if it flies in the face of your beliefs -

My beliefs are according to scripture, not mans ways and shady history and assumptions.

but it is what it is.

it is nothing so far, show your proof. And I show you scripture, but you quickly run from scripture to your vague history. I showed some history of the oldest findings and they contradict your findings.

So far every piece of Exegetical, academic, archeology with photographic evidence has been denied

No, you havent proven anything. I showed you proof of historical finds and you didn;t even comment on them and perhaps deny them because they dont justify your religeous form.

curious, what religious group are you a part of, does your group have a"name" to them, and tell me a bit about your group.

and the replies don't seem to be much more than a mishmash of unrelated scripture expressed and run on sentences.

No. I give clear scripture and you seem to ignore them. I even showed you God's commands fro all the churches and you brush them aside it seems. If any gathering hinders the free body edification where Christ is working in all and if the order hinders the Spirit then we should reject it and reform.

Here is the building God is building, consider very carefully and I encourage you to not brush this aside for the men later who build their own buildings that hinder this building.

"For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."(1 Corinthians 3:9-19)

 

[hislegacy]

what religious group are you a part of, does your group have a"name" to them, and tell me a bit about your group.

We are primarily called Christians.

 

[LoveofTruth]

We are primarily called Christians.

If you could be specific that would help. I think you know exactly what I am asking.

And do you have a copy or link to your groups so called “By-Laws” ?

And your so called “Creeds” I would like to see these .

 

[PloverWing]

And your so called “Crreds” I would like to see these .

hislegacy can answer for his own church, but my church primarily uses the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds. Do you object to using those creeds? If so, do you object to particular content in the creeds, or just object to having creeds at all?

 

[LoveofTruth]

hislegacy can answer for his own church, but my church primarily uses the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds. Do you object to using those creeds? If so, do you object to particular content in the creeds, or just object to having creeds at all?

I don’t have a problem having a creed too much . Sometime sone can bind themselves in a creed if something in thier creed is in error from scripture.

 

[hislegacy]

If you could be specific that would help. I think you know exactly what I am asking.

And do you have a copy or link to your groups so called “By-Laws” ?

And your so called “Crreds” I would like to see these .

Sure - you first - please post your "By-Laws" and so called creeds.

I'd like to see them also.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Sure - you first - please post your "By-Laws" and so called creeds.

I'd like to see them also.

Sure - you first - please post your "By-Laws" and so called creeds.

I'd like to see them also.

I don't believe in using man made commandments that turn from the truth We di nit use such things. I write to churches against their by laws (so called) when thy go against scripture and God's order.

As far as Creeds I don't have a problem with the idea to use them to give an overview But sometimes men bind themselves if there is an error in them.

 

[hislegacy]

I dont believe in using man mad commandments that turn from the truth We di nit use such things. I write to churches against their by laws (so called) when thy go against scripture and God's order.

Has any church ever changed their by laws after you wrote to them?

 

[hislegacy]

If you could be specific that would help. I think you know exactly what I am asking.

And do you have a copy or link to your groups so called “By-Laws” ?

And your so called “Crreds” I would like to see these .

We believe in One God maker of heaven and the earth who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit
We believe Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, buried in a borrow tomb and rose on the third day
We believe the if you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
We believe that Healing is provided for in the Atonement
We believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
We believe in the Gift of Righteousness
We believe to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord

How about you?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Has any church ever changed their by laws after you wrote to them?

I'm not sure. I have seen whole assemblies change their order though, One place the Lord sent me they took out the pulpit and changed all the seating to a large circle facing eachother and they had free ministry and edifying for a long time. Others, when i wrote to ta church. have tried to address these issues with the assembly and some have changed their gatherings and withdrew from disorder etc. The many brothers and sisters who I have seen come into home meetings all over have withdrawn from things that hindered them and the church and gathered with the saints in love and truth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

We believe in One God maker of heaven and the earth who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit
We believe Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, buried in a borrow tomb and rose on the third day
We believe the if you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
We believe that Healing is provided for in the Atonement
We believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
We believe in the Gift of Righteousness
We believe to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord

How about you?

I was asking if you have a actual written up By Laws or Creed books, or even a statement of faith.

 

[hislegacy]

I was asking if you have a actual written up By Laws or Creed books, or even a statement of faith.

That is a statement of faith.

You already said you don't follow creeds and you've demonstrated you distaste for by laws, so anything I put to you, you will not like, or even openly discuss - so what's the use?

It's been clearly demonstrated through diatribe we do not have a meeting of the minds. I have no chance of even an exchange, because you refuse anything I have offered.

I'll close with this:

The Church is comprised of BOTH home cell groups and corporate gatherings in buildings and has been so since the book of Acts.

The Greek ekklēsia is used a number of ways.

The part that has NOT been mentioned is Strongs reference:

ἐκκλησία, ἐκκλεσιας, ἡ (from ἔκκλητος called out or forth, and this from ἐκκαλέω); properly, a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly; so used​

​

1. among the Greeks from Thucydides (cf. Herodotus 3, 142) down, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of council for the purpose of deliberating: Acts 19:39.​

​

Additional:

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:​

This did not happen in a home church - it was the church - the center of activity where the presiding apostles and elders were.

The church (singular) at Ephesus and Corinth met in large building - not private homes. It is evidenced both in scripture and in archeology. The historicity of these buildings is proven and not disputed. I have been in the Church at Corinth. For it not to be the building called the church hundreds of years of archaeology and scientific proof - including some of the inscriptions on the building itself would have to be false.

Should we have pastors who get treated like kings? Absolutely not.

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, ​

Did you catch that? What are Apostles, prophets, evangelist pastor and teacher given for? The very gift that the OP is saying we should not have - they Holy Spirit writes we need the gift for equipping and edifying. That would be a DIRECT contradiction to scripture.

Once again, IMHO - to follow the OP I would also have to completely ignore Appollos, Pliney, Trajan, Origen, Josephus and a whole host of first centruy writers who were pastors of churches (physical buildings) I would have to capitulate that the OP had more knowledge than they did.

I'm not willing to do so.