The Papacy

[Rick Otto]

quote=MaxP; When you say to one of your children, take care of the rest, who are you clearly giving the leadership?

He didn't say that. You've inflated what He said. Feeding is not clothing, sheltering, or employing them nd He didn't say be in charge of feeding them, or even to lead them in any imaginable way. Feeding is nourishing, not leading, not commanding, not watering & not shearing.
If He had actualy said,"take care of the rest", you would have a point. As it stands, all you have is wishful thinking.

Good for them.

I wouldn't characterize the Inquisition as good for anybody.

Why did He not tell the rest?

He gave them keys as well, Hetold them to preach, teach, baptize, etc,... He did tell the others as much & more.

When you say to one of your children, take care of the rest, who are you clearly giving the leadership?

I wouldn't even think of trying to hand adult responsibility to a child & neither did He.

He did not make It a hierarchy,...

So why make it into one?

he left us men to guide us when there is confusion.

They(plural) did that with their writings.

We have hundreds of protestant denominations, all teaching differently.

No worse than one teaching blasphemies.

Can you see the necessity of a hierarchy, guaranteed by Christ, to clear what is wrong and what is right?

I can see His Spirit leading us into all wisdom as His scripture says. You yourself said He didn't make it a hierarchy. I can see His written word and I can see some power hungry men & their fearful mignions trying to own it,

EDIT: It is one-headed: He is the Head. He has the Pope as His representative on earth,

Ever heard "I'm from the government & I'm here to help you."? Sounds like the same cover story.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Isaiah 22:21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and will strengthen him with thy girdle, and will give thy power into his hand: and he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Juda.
22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.




Scripture tells us that in the time of the Davidic kingdom that the Prime Minister of the Kingdom held the Key to the House of David on His shoulder. It was a symbol that showed his station and his bestowed power from the king to act for the king. It was not a key meant to open the bedroom to the king's palace and it was not a master key to all of the kingodm, it was a symbol to show his authority like a badge that a police officer wears.

When Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom he did not hand Peter a bunch of keys either. Instead he gave a spiritual gift that was to represent Peters dynastic authority over the kingdom of God. And like the verse in Isaiah 22 the person holding the Keys would be like a father to the kingdoms inhabitants. Hence the name Pope.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I wouldn't characterize the Inquisition as good for anybody.

I agree. So many Ctaholics were tortured at the greatest of lengths and killed for being Catholic. Just horrible. There were also Protestants that were tortured and killed as well.

I wonder how far we have come because in the USA we use the Death Penalty for offenders of the country as they did during the times of the inquisition at the time of the Protestant Revolt.

It seems all civil wars have casualties and that nations/kingdoms resort to death for solutions. Sad indeed...

 

[JacktheCatholic]

So why make it into one?

Ever read JOHN 17 with that question in mind.

JOHN 17:
20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. 23 I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

Made ONE as in Katholikos.

 

[Rick Otto]

I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder

That is Jesus, not Peter.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ever read JOHN 17 with that question in mind. Made ONE as in Katholikos.

Again, you confuse the head with a part of the body. The body is one body, the head is one head, not one head here & one head there.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

That is Jesus, not Peter.

Jesus is not the Prime Minister, He is the KING.

The key was placed on the Prime Minsiters shoulder and not the Kings. You may want to study Isaiah 22 a little bit more if that is what you think happened.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Again, you confuse the head with a part of the body. The body is one body, the head is one head, not one head here & one head there.

I am not confusing the head and body, you are confusing what I say with what you think or want me to be saying.

Katholikos is the ONE CHURCH or ONE BODY of Christ and Jesus is the Head. The Body is under the head and the nervous system tells the body what to do. The Bishops of the Church are the connectionsto the Head in guiding the Body until it comes to the King in Heaven. While on Earth the POpe and the Magesterium are the authority with God working through them in matters of doctrine and dogma.

 

[MaxP]

He didn't say that. You've inflated what He said. Feeding is not clothing, sheltering, or employing them nd He didn't say be in charge of feeding them, or even to lead them in any imaginable way. Feeding is nourishing, not leading, not commanding, not watering & not shearing.
If He had actualy said,"take care of the rest", you would have a point. As it stands, all you have is wishful thinking.

The rock upon which I will build my Church?
The keys to the kingdom of Heaven?
Feed my sheep(making him a Shepard of the others)?

I wouldn't characterize the Inquisition as good for anybody.

Nope, definitely not. But, in all fairness, not as bad as some would have you believe.

He gave them keys as well, Hetold them to preach, teach, baptize, etc,... He did tell the others as much & more.

He gave Peter the keys; but He gave the others the power to bind and unbind, as is still held collectively by the conference of Bishops.

I wouldn't even think of trying to hand adult responsibility to a child & neither did He.

Ah, but then why does he command us to evangelize?
Is that not us caring for our fallen away brethren?

So why make it into one?

Answered by Jack.

They(plural) did that with their writings.

But those writings are worth nothing if not backed up by God. Hence, the Magisterium.

No worse than one teaching blasphemies.

Ah, funny how the Devil can pervert people's view of the Truth to make them perceive it as blasphemy.

I can see His Spirit leading us into all wisdom as His scripture says. You yourself said He didn't make it a hierarchy. I can see His written word and I can see some power hungry men & their fearful mignions trying to own it,

He did not make it a hierarchy as you would define, but He did make it a hierarchy as in an authority to guide us on matters of faith and morals.
Again, you must see we NEED someone to guide us, with the guarantee of God, given the sheer number of different teachings. They cannot all be true.

Ever heard "I'm from the government & I'm here to help you."? Sounds like the same cover story.

When the person really is, its valid.

 

[sunlover1]

The rock upon which I will build my Church?
The keys to the kingdom of Heaven?
Feed my sheep(making him a Shepard of the others)?

But you're 'assuming' that that's what He meant. You've added
words that are never mentioned and imo never implied.
Feed my sheep. He wasnt telling peter to feed the other Apostles
was He? Couldnt it be that He was telling Peter to feed His
sheep JUST AS The other Apostles were already doing?

Ah, but then why does he command us to evangelize?
Is that not us caring for our fallen away brethren?

Would that be like "feeding" his sheep?

But those writings are worth nothing if not backed up by God. Hence, the Magisterium.

God doesnt 'back' His Word... if not for the magisterium?
Have you studied His Word? Because no offence, but it's
common for Catholics NOT to study it. I was catholic,
I have many catholic friends and nearly all of my family
is catholic. I'm not slamming your denom.. just stating a
fact that some Catholics here have even admitted to..
Oh, and I'm sure that there are a great deal of non catholics
who never bother to search Scriptures to see if something
makes sense either.
But anyhow, I'f you'd studied His Word, you'd say that God
watches over His Own Word to perform it.
Every promise in Him is yeah and amen. There is the guarantee
that He Himself backs His Word.

Ah, funny how the Devil can pervert people's view of the Truth to make them perceive it as blasphemy.

It's not funny, but it's certainly happened to all of us.
Also, should we give the credit to the devil if we die for lack
of knowledge? Will God blame the devil if we're duped because
we lacked wisdom and discernment?

Again, you must see we NEED someone to guide us, with the guarantee of God, given the sheer number of different teachings. They cannot all be true.

Yes, that's why He gave us His Spirit. WHAT better help and guidance
could we possibly need?
He gave us His Spirit, He gave us teachers, pastors, evangalists...
He said that He's given us all that we need for life and for godliness.
And if that's not enough, He's given us HIs Word and ...
a covenant!

When the person really is, its valid

HEre from the government/here to help you equals an oxymoron.

 

[MaxP]

But you're 'assuming' that that's what He meant. You've added
words that are never mentioned and imo never implied.
Feed my sheep. He wasnt telling peter to feed the other Apostles
was He? Couldnt it be that He was telling Peter to feed His
sheep JUST AS The other Apostles were already doing?

Again, no one seems to answer why he singled Peter out with these titles and duties. He never pulled the other apostles aside and asked them to feed His sheep, or say that He will build his Church upon them. he never gave them the keys to the Kingdom.

Would that be like "feeding" his sheep?

Yes, and an adult duty he gave to his child.

God doesnt 'back' His Word... if not for the magisterium?
Have you studied His Word? Because no offence, but it's
common for Catholics NOT to study it. I was catholic,
I have many catholic friends and nearly all of my family
is catholic. I'm not slamming your denom.. just stating a
fact that some Catholics here have even admitted to..
Oh, and I'm sure that there are a great deal of non catholics
who never bother to search Scriptures to see if something
makes sense either.
But anyhow, I'f you'd studied His Word, you'd say that God
watches over His Own Word to perform it.
Every promise in Him is yeah and amen. There is the guarantee
that He Himself backs His Word.

Again, if God "watches over His own Word," per se, why use prophets like Moses, Elijah, Abraham, etc.?
God uses individuals to accomplish His will.

It's not funny, but it's certainly happened to all of us.
Also, should we give the credit to the devil if we die for lack
of knowledge? Will God blame the devil if we're duped because
we lacked wisdom and discernment?

Course not. We have to know what is going on. We have to be able to discern. The end choice is ours.

Yes, that's why He gave us His Spirit. WHAT better help and guidance
could we possibly need?
He gave us His Spirit, He gave us teachers, pastors, evangalists...
He said that He's given us all that we need for life and for godliness.
And if that's not enough, He's given us HIs Word and ...
a covenant!

I am NOT saying the Magisterium is better guidance than the Holy Spirit. I am saying that the Holy Spirit is not going to individually come to every person and smack them with the Truth. To do so would be contrary to the will of the person. He will, however, affirm you in your faith and gently lead you in the right direction.
Because of this, we have the Magisterium, and infallible institution of the Church as founded by Christ, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to give us guidance.

HEre from the government/here to help you equals an oxymoron.

So here from God/ here to help is an oxymoron as well, then?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Again, no one seems to answer why he singled Peter out with these titles and duties. He never pulled the other apostles aside and asked them to feed His sheep, or say that He will build his Church upon them. he never gave them the keys to the Kingdom

Well neither did He pull the Pope aside

John 21:15 When then they dine is saying the Jesus to the Simon Peter "Simon of Jonas/John, thou are loving/agapaV <25> Me more of these?' He is saying to Him "yea Lord! Thou has seen/known that I am being-affectionate of Thee". He is saying to him "be thou grazing/boske <1006>! the lambkins/ arnia <721> of Me"

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/arnion <721> standing, as having been slaughtered

 

[MaxP]

...sigh...
I used "pulled aside" figuratively, as in singled out.

 

[sunlover1]

Again, no one seems to answer why he singled Peter out with these titles and duties. He never pulled the other apostles aside and asked them to feed His sheep, or say that He will build his Church upon them. he never gave them the keys to the Kingdom.

Well we view it differently. I can tell you why I DONT believe that He
singled Him out (except to change his name, giving him a new identity)
but that's not going to help either of us agree.
I believe that all of the disciples were there at that time, and that Peter
happened to answer the question.
My pastor often will say something and then mention this one members
name,.. as IF he were speaking to Joe and not to the rest of us.
But he IS speaking to all of us, he just emphasises this one guys name
sometimes because it's something that that guy had perhaps asked
about in private (that and he doesnt know many of the guys names
yet, it's a very new church and we only see him on Sundays)

Again, if God "watches over His own Word," per se, why use prophets like Moses, Elijah, Abraham, etc.?
God uses individuals to accomplish His will.

I dont see what the one has to do with the other.
We were talking about 'backing up' His Word.

Course not. We have to know what is going on. We have to be able to discern. The end choice is ours.

Amen. We will stand alone before God, no pastor to point at and
say, well HE told me such and such.
But you know what, God's very very longsuffering and He knows,
since He did create us, that we're like a puff of smoke, and we're
like sheep who need , desperately need, His hand giuding us .

I am NOT saying the Magisterium is better guidance than the Holy Spirit.

Awesome.

I am saying that the Holy Spirit is not going to individually come to every person and smack them with the Truth.

If we ask for truth, He'll give it.
And often, He'll give it even if we dont ask for it or maybe
dont even want to hear it.. (Paul)

He will, however, affirm you in your faith and gently lead you in the right direction.
Because of this, we have the Magisterium,

Sounds fine to me, God works through others.

So here from God/ here to help is an oxymoron as well, then?

No comparison. God is not one of the world systems.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

My theory has always been that Jesus "pulled" Peter "aside" and told him these things because Peter was the weakest of the disciples. The rock is NOT Peter, the rock and foundation of the Church is Jesus. Peter was the one who denied Christ THREE times. I think Jesus was giving him a friendly reminder of what their job was to be in the coming times. There's no indication that Jesus was raising Peter over and above the other disciples. Unless, of course, you base your views on tradition rather than scripture.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am saying that the Holy Spirit is not going to individually come to every person and smack them with the Truth.

Man, wouldn't that be nice if that happened We certaintly can't go back and see Jesus resurrected and ascended........

Luke 16:31 Saying yet to him "if Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded".

 

[sunlover1]

My theory has always been that Jesus "pulled" Peter "aside" and told him these things because Peter was the weakest of the disciples.

Sort of like when the angel called Gideon "mighty man of valor"?

A new name indicates a change in Identity, such as with Abram
to AbraHam... (study on the names in Hebrew is helpful too)
Abram grew INTO the new name that God gave him.
And so did peter I"m sure.
Heh, Peter recognized that Jesus was God and was told that
now He was going to rename him ROCK because Peter 'GOT"
it (it had been revealed to Him) and that this "REVELATiON
of Jesus Christ/God" was what He was building his church upon.
(Thats how I understand it right now anyhow)

The rock is NOT Peter, the rock and foundation of the Church is Jesus. Peter was the one who denied Christ THREE times. I think Jesus was giving him a friendly reminder of what their job was to be in the coming times. There's no indication that Jesus was raising Peter over and above the other disciples.

Seems more like the case, in light of the entire Bible.

sunlover

 

[MaxP]

My theory has always been that Jesus "pulled" Peter "aside" and told him these things because Peter was the weakest of the disciples. The rock is NOT Peter, the rock and foundation of the Church is Jesus. Peter was the one who denied Christ THREE times. I think Jesus was giving him a friendly reminder of what their job was to be in the coming times. There's no indication that Jesus was raising Peter over and above the other disciples. Unless, of course, you base your views on tradition rather than scripture.

When you have to make a statement that is directly contrary to Scripture, what does that tell you?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When you have to make a statement that is directly contrary to Scripture, what does that tell you?

I give up.......

 

[MaxP]

What I'm trying to communicate is that Christ calling Peter rock, giving him the Keys to the Kingdom, and telling him to feed His sheep, can individually be written off, but together they are a whole nother thing.