The Papacy

[JacktheCatholic]

Yes, He came to the Jews to save them and it is only thru their Messiah and His sacrifice we also are able to be saved. So do not boast

Romans 11:19 "Thou shall be declaring then 'are broken-off boughs that I may be in-pierced/grafted'
20 Ideally to the un-belief/faithless they are broken-off, thou yet to the Faith/Belief have stood. No being high minded, but be fearing.
21 For if the God of the according to nature, boughes, not He spares, neither of thee He shall be sparing".

I have only love in my heart for you LLoJ and boasting has no room there.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So which theology any of us choose is not dependent on what the Apostles most likely taught but rather on what one chooses to believe. If it were the first then one would place an importance on the writings of the men that were taught by the Apostles and given a place of authority as Bishop or father of a church.

The question is, is "Catholicism" the Church JESUS set up? I remembered this thread on it....

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7213672
Is Catholicism the same Church that the Apostles set up

 

[MaxP]

When I manage a bunch of people, and I have one person on that team who doesn't always quite get the principle, I pull him or her aside and re-explain things. I may even tell them that they do great work and a great addition to the team. It does NOT mean that I have just handed the reins over to this person to run the project.

What you don't give them is the password to the computer mainframe that runs the company. You do not tell them they have the keys to the company; and that what they say is done.
The rest of the Apostles were given the ability to bind an unbind, but never the keys.

And again, most non-Catholics will agree that the scriptures do not clearly state that Jesus was making Peter the rock and foundation of the Church. Most will probably tell you that Jesus was clearly stating that Peter's calling him Christ is what Jesus is referring to, that he Himself will be the rock and foundation. For all we know, because scripture does not speak otherwise, Jesus renamed Peter as a reminder that Jesus is indeed Christ, lest Peter "forget" it again.

Peter means "rock." Based on that it is a safe interpretation.
If Peter was not the rock, why did Jesus give him the Keys?

Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

[Trento]

When I manage a bunch of people, and I have one person on that team who doesn't always quite get the principle, I pull him or her aside and re-explain things. I may even tell them that they do great work and a great addition to the team. It does NOT mean that I have just handed the reins over to this person to run the project.

And again, most non-Catholics will agree that the scriptures do not clearly state that Jesus was making Peter the rock and foundation of the Church. Most will probably tell you that Jesus was clearly stating that Peter's calling him Christ is what Jesus is referring to, that he Himself will be the rock and foundation. For all we know, because scripture does not speak otherwise, Jesus renamed Peter as a reminder that Jesus is indeed Christ, lest Peter "forget" it again.

Quoting, Martin Luther, said this:

Why are you searching heavenward in search of my keys? Do you not understand, Jesus said, 'I gave them to Peter. They are indeed the keys of heaven, but they are not found in heaven for I left them on earth. Peter's mouth is my mouth, his tongue is my key case, his keys are my keys. They are an office. They are a power, a command given by God through Christ to all of Christendom for the retaining and remitting of the sins of men. (Martin Luther 1531 - after he left the Church)

W. F. Albright, one of the best known Protestant theologians of this century, in his Anchor Bible Commentary, says:

Peter as the Rock will be the foundation of the future community, the church....To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence.
​

I recently spoke with a grammar specialist who is not Catholic. She explained to me that the adjective "this" grammatically must refer to the nearest preceding noun, which was Peter, not his declaration which occurs two verses earlier.

​

When Jesus says "whatever you bind" to Peter in Mat 16:18, the Greek text used for "you" is singular. In Mat 18:18 the Greek text, the word for "you" in "whatever you bind" is plural. Catholics think these two juxtaposed but similar phrases lay out the early structure of the Church with Peter as the Pope and the other apostles as priests.
​

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The question is, is "Catholicism" the Church JESUS set up? I remembered this thread on it....

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7213672
Is Catholicism the same Church that the Apostles set up

Great thread

Guess who started it?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation: 23 June 1520

[From: Three Treatises, revised edition of 1970; taken from Luther's Works]

. . . the keys were not given to Peter alone but to the whole community. Further, the keys were not ordained for doctrine or government, but only for the binding and loosing of sin. Whatever else or whatever more they arrogate to themselves on the basis of the keys is a mere fabrication. But Christ's words to Peter, "I have prayed for you that your faith fail not" [Luke 23:32], cannot be applied to the pope, since the majority of the popes have been without faith, as they must themselves confess. . . .

Why, then, should we reject the word and understanding of good Christians and follow the pope, who has neither faith nor the Spirit. To follow the pope would be to deny the whole faith, as well as the Christian church. (pp. 20-21)

There is no authority in the church except to promote good. Therefore, if the pope were to use his authority to prevent the calling of a free council, thereby preventing the improvement of the church, we should have regard neither for him nor for his authority. And if he were to hurl his bans and thunderbolts, we should despise his conduct as that of a madman. On the contrary, we should excommunicate him and drive him out as best we could, relying completely on God. This presumptuous authority of his is nothing. He does not even have such authority. (p. 24)

[T]he Christian nobility should set itself against the pope as against a common enemy and destroyer of Christendom for the salvation of the poor souls who perish because of this tyranny. (p. 45)

. . . to help the German nation to be free and Christian again after the wretched, heathenish, and un-Christian rule of the pope. (p. 49)

. . . popes, bishops, canons, and monks. God has not instituted these offices. (p. 66)

If there were no other base trickery to prove that the pope is the true Antichrist, this one would be enough to prove it. Hear this, O pope, not of all men the holiest but of all men the most sinful! O that God from heaven would soon destroy your throne and sink it in the abyss of hell! Who has given you authority to exalt yourself above your God . . . ? (p. 85)

What else is papal power but simply the teaching and increasing of sin and wickedness? Papal power serves only to lead souls into damnation in your name and, to all outward appearances, with your approval! (p. 85)

The pope suppresses God's commandment and exalts his own. If he is not the Antichrist, then somebody tell me who is! (p. 86)

 

[PreachersWife2004]

For the record, if you wanna quote Luther to a Lutheran, make sure ya got him in context.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Martin Luther seem to contradict himself through out his life.

When he was Catholic he praised the Catholic Church and it's Pope. But when he excommunicated himself he said about the opposite. When Martin decided to make his own translation and canon of scripture he removed books and then later he added them back. And there were other times that Martin Luther was making his voise heard on something and then later he contradicted himself. I guess in the USA if he were running for President then like Kerry he may be called a flip flop?

 

[Sphinx777]

Great thread

Guess who started it?

Another thread of interest...

Link

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Great thread

Guess who started it?

A RC of course Guess who closed it LOL

Why the heck is this thread elongated? Never mind......Trento ehehehe........

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Another thread of interest...

Link

Dude! That thread ROCKS!


* I am going to check it out and to get back on topic...


The Papacy = the Father of the Church much like Paul was the father of his church and the church were his children.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dude! That thread ROCKS!


* I am going to check it out and to get back on topic...


The Papacy = the Father of the Church much like Paul was the father of his church and the church were his children.

I get this sneaky feeling Sphinx is a RC, but then, I was really never sure what he was

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Martin Luther seem to contradict himself through out his life.

When he was Catholic he praised the Catholic Church and it's Pope. But when he excommunicated himself he said about the opposite. When Martin decided to make his own translation and canon of scripture he removed books and then later he added them back. And there were other times that Martin Luther was making his voise heard on something and then later he contradicted himself. I guess in the USA if he were running for President then like Kerry he may be called a flip flop?

He was human and never claimed to be infallible. And he was still yearning for a connect to the Catholic Church, so I would tend to believe he had a hard time letting most of his Catholic beliefs go without a fight.

It's why we worship God and not Luther.

ETA: The above statement is in no way a statement that Catholics worship the Pope. Just wanted to clarify that before anyone misread it!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I get this sneaky feeling Sphinx is a RC, but then, I was really never sure what he was

That would be cool.

But I do not know either. But you have to admit he has a lot of good info quotes.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

He was human and never claimed to be infallible. And he was still yearning for a connect to the Catholic Church, so I would tend to believe he had a hard time letting most of his Catholic beliefs go without a fight.

It's why we worship God and not Luther.

I know Luther tried to live a pious life. So much so that some say he suffered from scrupilocity. I also believe the monarchs of his time used him as they could to their own ends as many of the monarchs of their time did with people. So I am not completely uncompassionate about Luther.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I know Luther tried to live a pious life. So much so that some say he suffered from scrupilocity. I also believe the monarchs of his time used him as they could to their own ends as many of the monarchs of their time did with people. So I am not completely uncompassionate about Luther.

I'd stretch my arms over Detroit to Royal Oak if I could! (It is Royal Oak, right?)

 

[prodromos]

When Jesus asked all the Aposlte who people say Jesus is it was Peter alone who was given the answer by God. It was not John the Beloved or any other Apostle.

Scripture does not say whether or not the other Apostles were granted the same revelation as Simon. Scripture does show that Peter had a tendency to speak ahead of the others, so your claim above cannot be proven by scripture.


John

 

[prodromos]

The rest of the Apostles were given the ability to bind an unbind, but never the keys.

That is not what your Doctors of the Church say:

St Jerome

"...elsewhere the same is attributed to all the apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the church depends on them all alike". (Epistle 146.1)​

St Augustine

"This refers to the keys about which it is said "whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" -(Sermon III/8)​

St John Chrysostom

"The keys of the heavens, that whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" -(Homily 54.2-3.)​

John

 

[prodromos]

Trento, your English grammar lesson is not applicable to the Greek text and that huge image is stuffing up the formatting. Please replace it with a smaller version. There are also plenty of Church Fathers who you are in disagreement with regarding Matthew 16:18-19

John

 

[prodromos]

Duplicate...