The Papacy

[Brennin]

A lot here believe it is an imagined office.

The proof that Christ constituted St. Peter head of His Church is found in Matthew 16:17-19, and John 21:15-17.

Matthew:


John:

He is telling Peter to feed his sheep, to care for His flock: giving Peter supremacy to "feed" the Church.

I'm interested in those who deny the papacies' explanation of these.

Peter is primus inter pares. He was first to receive the authority to bind and loose because of his proclamation of faith but the same authority to bind and loose is soon extended to the rest of the apostles.

Also, for those who believe the papacy cam along much later, I present these facts:

- Peter presided over the first Council at Jerusalem

No, he did not. James presided at the Council of Jerusalem.

- The letter of Clement(Pope 92-101) to the Church in Corinth, settling a dispute there. This proves the Pope was regarded as having supremacy over the whole Church.


I'm interested to hear the arguments against the papacy.

Corinth was populated by Romans after it was destroyed and the presbyter-bishops who were unrighteously turned out appealed to the presbyter-bishops of Rome for support.

 

[Brennin]

He gave Peter the keys; but He gave the others the power to bind and unbind, as is still held collectively by the conference of Bishops.

Keys bind and loose. Therefore, all the apostles received the keys.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Keys bind and loose. Therefore, all the apostles received the keys.

As Chrysostom says, they (the other apostles) received the keys at a lesser degree. Peter had full access to Heaven while the other Apostles who shared in this had less access.

The Keys are a sign of authority and I applaud your understanding here.

 

[prodromos]

As Chrysostom says, they (the other apostles) received the keys at a lesser degree. Peter had full access to Heaven while the other Apostles who shared in this had less access.

Jack, you will need to provide a citation (with a link so we can see context) plus you will also need to demonstrate that St John Chrysostom is not alone in this interpretation. So far the above statement is without substance.

John

 

[Rick Otto]

The world is run by snake headed aliens.

Ya want a link?

 

[GuardianShua]

As Chrysostom says, they (the other apostles) received the keys at a lesser degree. Peter had full access to Heaven while the other Apostles who shared in this had less access.

The Keys are a sign of authority and I applaud your understanding here.

I do not believe that Yahshua turned his authority over to Peter. I think that it is a Catholic deception. For any Pope to say they hold the keys to heaven and hell is misleading. Lets see now, whom shall I follow, a man who is called Holy Father and Christ incarnate, whom is a Holy Spirit. Or shall I follow Yahwah and His Messiah. I'm not sure I like the way the Pope CANonized scripture.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The world is run by snake headed aliens.

Ya want a link?

Naw, I am used to the Sola Scriptura lack of links and sources.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jack, you will need to provide a citation (with a link so we can see context) plus you will also need to demonstrate that St John Chrysostom is not alone in this interpretation. So far the above statement is without substance.

John

John,

I did not post a link because of the time it involves to find the exact writing of John Chrysostom's that I am referring to. I will find it for you since you ask, but as you know John Chrysostom has many surviving writings and so I hope my recollection of the letter is true... on Matthew I believe.

Anyhow, I will come back and edit this once I locate it.

In Christ,

Jack

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As Chrysostom says, they (the other apostles) received the keys at a lesser degree. Peter had full access to Heaven while the other Apostles who shared in this had less access.

The Keys are a sign of authority and I applaud your understanding here.

What about after the event of the Jewish Pentecost? Who held the most authority after this?

Acts 2:1 And in to the to be together-filled the day of the Pentecost were all likewise upon the same. 2 And became suddenly out of the Heaven a blare, as-even of carrying of blast, forcible and it fills whole the house where they were sitting. 3 And were seen to them as dividing tongues as if of fire and is seated upon one each of them. 4 And they are filled all a spirit, holy-one, and they begin to be speaking to different tounges according as the spirit gave to be uttering to them. 5 There were yet in Jerusalem dwelling Judeans, pious men from every nation of the under the Heaven.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

In my search of the exact quote of John Chrysostom I have come across other quotes that I am finding pertinent to this thread and since I am searching I thought it best to share some of my other findings as well.

Homily 54 on Matthew

What then says Christ? You are Simon, the son of Jonas; you shall be called Cephas. Thus since you have proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat you; all but saying, As you are son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father. Else it were superfluous to say, You are Son of Jonas; but since he had said, Son of God, to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; Matthew 16:18 that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because you are shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.
Then He mentions also another honor. And I also will give you the keys of the heavens. But what is this, And I also will give you? As the Father has given you to know me, so will I also give you.
And He said not, I will entreat the Father (although the manifestation of His authority was great, and the largeness of the gift unspeakable), but, I will give you. What dost Thou give? tell me. The keys of the heavens, that whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in Heaven. How then is it not His to give to sit on His right hand, and on His left, Matthew 20:23 when He says, I will give you?
Do you see how He, His own self, leads Peter on to high thoughts of Him, and reveals Himself, and implies that He is Son of God by these two promises? For those things which are peculiar to God alone, (both to absolve sins, and to make the church in capable of overthrow in such assailing waves, and to exhibit a man that is a fisher more solid than any rock, while all the world is at war with him), these He promises Himself to give; as the Father, speaking to Jeremiah, said, He would make him as a brazen pillar, and as a wall; Jeremiah 1:18 but him to one nation only, this man in every part of the world.
I would fain inquire then of those who desire to lessen the dignity of the Son, which manner of gifts were greater, those which the Father gave to Peter, or those which the Son gave him? For the Father gave to Peter the revelation of the Son; but the Son gave him to sow that of the Father and that of Himself in every part of the world; and to a mortal man He entrusted the authority over all things in Heaven, giving him the keys; who extended the church to every part of the world, and declared it to be stronger than heaven. For heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35 How then is He less, who has given such gifts, has effected such things?
And these things I say, not dividing the works of Father and Son (for all things are made by Him, and without Him was nothing made which was made): but bridling the shameless tongue of them that dare so to speak.
But see, throughout all, His authority: I say unto you, You are Peter; I will build the Church; I will give you the keys of Heaven.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200154.htm

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What about after the event of the Jewish Pentecost? Who held the most authority after this?

Acts 2:1 And in to the to be together-filled the day of the Pentecost were all likewise upon the same. 2 And became suddenly out of the Heaven a blare, as-even of carrying of blast, forcible and it fills whole the house where they were sitting. 3 And were seen to them as dividing tongues as if of fire and is seated upon one each of them. 4 And they are filled all a spirit, holy-one, and they begin to be speaking to different tounges according as the spirit gave to be uttering to them. 5 There were yet in Jerusalem dwelling Judeans, pious men from every nation of the under the Heaven.

John Chrysostom speaks on Acts as well.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210104.htm

 

[racer]

What I find puzzling in this fundamental theology where all one needs is scripture and guidance from Jesus is why the Apostles?

This is yet another example of too much being read into the term "sola Scriptura." I know that I've said it numerous times, I've seen Josiah say, and I'm pretty sure Albion, we do not deny the "teaching" authority of the church. If we didn't believe the Church was necessary we wouldn't bother going to church.

It's really simple, and I don't understand why those opposed to the ideology are so threatened by it. A "true" understanding of SS would not actually contradict RC teaching if every thing the RCC claims is true. It's just like going to a science class or a math class. Your teacher holds up a book and says, "This is the text book we will be using in this class. This book and only this book." The Bible is our text book.

I mean, if Jesus only intended to have the bible and people find Him for guidance then why even bother with all that Apsotle stuff and bothering to wander around with a bunch of stupid and arrogant men?

IF this is all you truly need then why didn't Jesus simply write the bible and pass it out along the way?

If a written form of the Gospel is/was not necessary, why write any of it down then? Why put any of it in the Book? Tell me this how did the early church leaders determine which books to include and which to leave out? Why did they choose to leave out certain books?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

John Chrysostom speaks on Acts as well.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210104.htm

Never read him but I did find Gene 15 rather interesting, and it appears to be a type of the event of Pentecost in some ways.
Maybe the Hebrew Jews can help out on this

Genesis 15:17 And the sun is become set and twilight became and behold! an oven of smoke and a torch of fire which passed between the severed-ones, these, 18 In that day YHWH cut with Abram a Covenant to say of 'to thy seed I give this land from river of Egypt as far as the river, the great river Euphrates.19 the Qeyniy and the Q@nizziy and the Qadmoniy and the Chittiy and the P@rizziy and the rapha' and the 'Emoriy and the K@na`aniy and the Girgashiy and the Y@buwciy'

 

[JacktheCatholic]

John Chrysostom on the Gospel of John and Peter having the chief authority of the Apostles.

Homily 88 : http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240188.htm

John 21:15

So when they had dined, Jesus says to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, do you love Me more than these? He says unto Him, Yea, Lord, You know that I love You.
1. There are indeed many other things which are able to give us boldness towards God, and to show us bright and approved, but that which most of all brings good will from on high, is tender care for our neighbor. Which therefore Christ requires of Peter. For when their eating was ended, Jesus says to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, do you love Me more than these? He says unto Him, Yea, Lord, You know that I love You.
He says unto him, Feed My sheep.
And why, having passed by the others, does He speak with Peter on these matters? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to enquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus puts into his hands the chief authority among the brethren; and He brings not forward the denial, nor reproaches him with what had taken place, but says, If you love Me, preside over your brethren, and the warm love which you ever manifested, and in which you rejoiced, show thou now; and the life which you said you would lay down for Me, now give for My sheep.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Never read him but I did find Gene 15 rather interesting, and it appears to be a type of the event of Pentecost in some ways.
Maybe the Hebrew Jews can help out on this

Genesis 15:17 And the sun is become set and twilight became and behold! an oven of smoke and a torch of fire which passed between the severed-ones, these, 18 In that day YHWH cut with Abram a Covenant to say of 'to thy seed I give this land from river of Egypt as far as the river, the great river Euphrates.19 the Qeyniy and the Q@nizziy and the Qadmoniy and the Chittiy and the P@rizziy and the rapha' and the 'Emoriy and the K@na`aniy and the Girgashiy and the Y@buwciy'

John Chrysostom is a great man in the Catholic Church. He is one of only 33 people that have been given the title of Doctor. We read John's writings as having a preservation of what the Apsotles taught and his writings are not read lightly.

I am sure you have some good insights but in the matters of Christianity and how scriptures are to be understood we can see the truth is this man John Chrysostom. I think it important to note that John Chrysostom was alive and writing during the time the Christian church was canonizing the New Testament and John's words reflect how Christianity understood the words to be meant.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

John Chrysostom is a great man in the Catholic Church. He is one of only 33 people that have been given the title of Doctor. We read John's writings as having a preservation of what the Apsotles taught and his writings are not read lightly.

I am sure you have some good insights but in the matters of Christianity and how scriptures are to be understood we can see the truth is this man John Chrysostom. I think it important to note that John Chrysostom was alive and writing during the time the Christian church was canonizing the New Testament and John's words reflect how Christianity understood the words to be meant.

Perhaps so but there are plenty of others that also have read the Scriptures and have come to understand what they meant, but who can wholly know the Mind of YHWH and His Christ Jesus

Romans 12:2 And no ye be being conformed to the Age, this, but be ye being transformed to the renewing of the Mind/nooV <3563>, into the to be testing ye what is the will of the God, the good and well-pleasing and perfect.

Reve 17:9 Here the mind/nouV <3563> , the having wisdom. The seven heads seven Mountains are, the-where the Woman is sitting on them.