The Papacy

[MaxP]

Jerusalem, But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Samaria, Who, when they (Peter and John) were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Gentiles, While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Gentiles, Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

What exactly are you trying to communicate?
That Peter was equal?
Its a hard position to defend scriptually when Jesus so clearly gives Peter distinction among the apostles, making him a foundation and Shepard of them.

 

[HisWordisTruth7]

I always thought the church was built on the apostles(plural) and the prophets with Jesus as the chief cornerstone

 

[Hentenza]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09272b.htm

What you quoted only says that the RC believed the list that Irenaeus published versus the one that Tertullian published. This poses a problem for the RC since both of the primary lists of succession disagree with each other.

Also, the RC claims that Linus is the one depicted in 1 Timothy 4:21 but his name does not appear first which would be the customary placement for someone of importance or a leader. It is unlikely that this Linus would have the distinction of replacing Peter as pope.

 

[sunlover1]

He did send the Spirit, on Pentecost, the birthday of the Church, it came to the Apostles.
We have spirit here on earth, in the form of the Church and the Magisterium.
He sent it not to individually inspire each person(although He does that), but to guarantee the work of the Church is good.

I can't believe that you're speaking for your church when you say
this, unless you dont mean what you appear to be saying.
We have God here, in the form of the "church and magisterium"
is not biblical... did I misunderstand you?

And Where did you get the idea that God here to guarantee the Work
of the church (I realise that by church you dont mean body of Christ)?

 

[MaxP]

I can't believe that you're speaking for your church when you say
this, unless you dont mean what you appear to be saying.
We have God here, in the form of the "church and magisterium"
is not biblical... did I misunderstand you?

We have God inspiring and "backing them up," so to speak.

And Where did you get the idea that God here to guarantee the Work
of the church (I realise that by church you dont mean body of Christ)?

"The Gates of Hell shall not Prevail against thee."

Kind of a guarantee, huh?

 

[MaxP]

What you quoted only says that the RC believed the list that Irenaeus published versus the one that Tertullian published. This poses a problem for the RC since both of the primary lists of succession disagree with each other.

They used the list of Irenaeus published because it agreed with the lists of Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius, also the Liberian catalogue of 354.

Also, the RC claims that Linus is the one depicted in 1 Timothy 4:21 but his name does not appear first which would be the customary placement for someone of importance or a leader. It is unlikely that this Linus would have the distinction of replacing Peter as pope.

It says it as a possibility, not a definite fact. It could be referring to a totally different Linus, or Linus before his papacy.

 

[MaxP]

I always thought the church was built on the apostles(plural) and the prophets with Jesus as the chief cornerstone

Jesus was, and is, the Head, Peter is the rock on which Christ built the Church.

The Pope is Christ's Vicar.

 

[sunlover1]

We have God inspiring and "backing them up," so to speak.

Us friend, US.
We have God inspiring US!

Bible says acknowledge HIM in all your ways,
and HE will direct your paths.
You were meant to live by His Voice.
We are created beings, meant to be connected
to our creator..
Does he use men? Yes, all of the time. When
He blesses us, it comes through men...
But HE"s our leader and Scripture doesnt mention
His need of any helper.

"The Gates of Hell shall not Prevail against thee."

Kind of a guarantee, huh?

Every promise in Him is yes and amen.

 

[Sphinx777]

Jesus was, and is, the Head, Peter is the rock on which Christ built the Church.

The Pope is Christ's Vicar.

Vicar of Christ (Latin Vicarius Christi) has been used since Pope Gelasius I (served 492 - 496), alongside a few rarer 'vicarial' titles, as one of the titles of the Bishop of Rome —the Pope— as head of the Universal Church. A "vicar" is, roughly, a representative. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in addition to the pope, each bishop is referred to as the "Christ's Vicar" (§1560) to their diocese, and the conscience is called "the aboriginal Vicar of Christ." (§1778)

Previously the term referred to the Holy Spirit, and the Bishop of Rome was referred to as the Vicar of Saint Peter.

 

[MaxP]

Us friend, US.
We have God inspiring US!

Bible says acknowledge HIM in all your ways,
and HE will direct your paths.
You were meant to live by His Voice.
We are created beings, meant to be connected
to our creator..
Does he use men? Yes, all of the time. When
He blesses us, it comes through men...
But HE"s our leader and Scripture doesnt mention
His need of any helper.

Yes he inspires us.
But if he "needed no helper" why did he have prophets? Why did he establish a Church(singular) and leadership of it, including the Pope?

Every promise in Him is yes and amen.

okely dokely.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Jesus was, and is, the Head, Peter is the rock on which Christ built the Church.

You are making a serious oversight. The text speaks of Peter. The text does not speak of Rome. A Catholic may believe that Peter is Rome, but you can't presuppose that in a logical proof designed to show Rome's supremicy via appeal to Peter. That's begging the question.

 

[prodromos]

Why did he establish a Church(singular) and leadership of it, including the Pope?

Every Bishop surrounded by the faithful is the Church (singular). The Pope is just a bishop. There is no Bishop of Bishops.

John

 

[sunlover1]

Yes he inspires us.
But if he "needed no helper" why did he have prophets? Why did he establish a Church(singular) and leadership of it, including the Pope?

Why did he have prophets? To help us to grow up in Him.
To become dependant on Him.. not tricked by mens deceit.

Till we all come ind the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
d in: or, into


But we dont see any mention of popes here.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: ...
Jesus didnt teach any heirarchy of Apostles though did he?
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

okely dokely

For all the promises of God in him are yea,
and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. ​

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ,
and hath anointed us, is God;
Who hath also sealed us,
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul,
that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
Not for that we have dominion over your faith,
but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. ​

See where it says "WE"?

 

[MaxP]

You are making a serious oversight. The text speaks of Peter. The text does not speak of Rome. A Catholic may believe that Peter is Rome, but you can't presuppose that in a logical proof designed to show Rome's supremicy via appeal to Peter. That's begging the question.

Peter is the Pope. It would not matter if the Pope was Bishop of London, Timbuktu or Rome. The Pope has the supremacy, not any geographical location.

 

[MaxP]

Why did he have prophets? To help us to grow up in Him.
To become dependant on Him.. not tricked by mens deceit.

Till we all come ind the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
d in: or, into


But we dont see any mention of popes here.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: ...
Jesus didnt teach any heirarchy of Apostles though did he?
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

You ignore the fact the Papacy was established in the later end of the NT accounts, as the Church. To look for the mention of the word Pope is fallacious. Again, I ask you, why did he establish a Church and build it upon Peter? he obviously established Peter as the lead Apostle, building His Church upon him and asking peter to feed his sheep. Also, giving him the keys to the kingdom of Heaven,

For all the promises of God in him are yea,

and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ,
and hath anointed us, is God;
Who hath also sealed us,
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul,
that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
Not for that we have dominion over your faith,
but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. ​

See where it says "WE"?

He says we as referring to the Church and the Magisterium.
And they do not lord over faith; they guide us in it.

 

[MaxP]

Every Bishop surrounded by the faithful is the Church (singular). The Pope is just a bishop. There is no Bishop of Bishops.

John

Then why did Christ establish Peter as above the other apostles?
Why was Peter the one who made the final decision in the first Council at Jerusalem?
Why did Peter stay in Rome and not travel in missionary work like the rest?

 

[Epiphoskei]

Peter is the Pope. It would not matter if the Pope was Bishop of London, Timbuktu or Rome. The Pope has the supremacy, not any geographical location.

You're missing the point. The text which you are quoting does not say that Peter is "the Pope." You can't just see Peter, read "Pope" instead, and turn verses about him into verses about Rome (by which is meant the bishop and magesterium, not the city).

Your opening post read:

The Papacy
A lot here believe it is an imagined office.

The proof that Christ constituted St. Peter head of His Church is found in Matthew 16:17-19, and John 21:15-17.

Now, let alone the fact that those verses don't actually say anything about "headship" or "supremacy," they also don't mention an office. Your imagination read it in to the text. Do you see why we might call it an imagined office?

 

[MaxP]

You're missing the point. The text which you are quoting does not say that Peter is "the Pope." You can't just see Peter, read "Pope" instead, and turn verses about him into verses about Rome (by which is meant the bishop and magesterium, not the city).

Of course not, but the office of Pope is backed by scriptural and historical references.

Now, let alone the fact that those verses don't actually say anything about "headship" or "supremacy," they also don't mention an office. Your imagination read it in to the text. Do you see why we might call it an imagined office?

So, now we are not meant to read past what is just said on the page?
Jesus has to explicitly state exactly what He means for Him to mean anything?
Christ gave Peter authority over the Church.

 

[sunlover1]

You ignore the fact the Papacy was established in the later end of the NT accounts, as the Church. To look for the mention of the word Pope is fallacious.

Im not even looking for the word, the concept would satisfy me.

Again, I ask you, why did he establish a Church and build it upon Peter?

You cant just reread my post? Ya want me to tell ya again?
NO

he obviously established Peter as the lead Apostle, building His Church upon him and asking peter to feed his sheep. Also, giving him the keys to the kingdom of Heaven,

You think that Jesus built His church on peter... therefore we will never
agree unless one of us has a revelation.

He says we as referring to the Church and the Magisterium.
And they do not lord over faith; they guide us in it.

You say potato I say potahto...
And Danny says potatoe

 

[prodromos]

You ignore the fact the Papacy was established in the later end of the NT accounts, as the Church.

You have not established this as fact by any stretch of the imagination. You have given your Church's interpretation of a few passages. My Church does not interpret those verses as your does.

Again, I ask you, why did he establish a Church and build it upon Peter?

Christ builds His Church on the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets. You must understand what Christ says to Peter in light of this.

he obviously established Peter as the lead Apostle, building His Church upon him and asking peter to feed his sheep.

Peter is a "type" of all the Apostles, and when Christ tells Peter three times to "feed my sheep", it is to restore him to his apostleship which he lost through his three times denial of Christ.

Also, giving him the keys to the kingdom of Heaven

which all the Apostle receive.

John