The only question regarding Matthew 24:15

BABerean2 · May 26, 2015

Douggg said:
If the rapture turns out to take place at the time of the two witnesses rising, it would fit anytime rapture view. I personally think that because there are verses saying "at a time you think not", the likelyhood is lessen. But I would not say that it is not possible.

You are a rare gemstone, who is at least willing to listen to the viewpoint of others.
Thank you for that.
.

Straightshot · May 26, 2015

Many think they know .... but the Lord has the truth on the matter [Revelation 3:10]

Those who know this [Matthew 25:1-13 ... those with oil]

Those who do not know [Revelation 3:9-15]

parousia70 · May 26, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
I don't think there's any documentation of anyone on earth ever seeing Christ returned on the clouds during 70 AD either. Matthew 24:30 said all the tribes on the earth will see Him coming. Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, the Olivet Discourse is clearly about the future. Matthew 24:30 is literal, not a spiritual event, as was the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was literal.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father.

We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings)

Lets take your "Unless someone has documented evidence of this event..." litmus test and apply it to these and see if it works:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Isaiah 19:1-2] is clearly about the future."

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Zechariah 9:13-16] is clearly about the future."

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Ez 5:7-9] is clearly about the future."

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5] is clearly about the future."

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Isa 52:10] is clearly about the future."

Apparently your position is that anytime the prophets describe God as coming to earth and doing a whole host of physical things, these things did not happen because there is no historical proof?
In reality, These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.

Berean777 · May 27, 2015

Yes, the white clouds are not natural clouds but are symbolic of the Angelic hosts of heaven. So every eye shall see him is not a natural event but one that transpires in heaven when the Angels the harvesters are splitting up the two groups. Wheat in Christ's heavenly barn and TARES into the lake of fire, second death.

Another interesting verse you brought up is this one:

Zechariah 9:14
And the Lord shall be seen over them,
and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning:
and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet,
and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

There is a hidden message here:

Lightning = brilliant coming
Trumpet = 7 th trumpet
South = destruction

Time no longer, the end!

michael144 · May 28, 2015

Douggg said:
The only question regarding Matthew 24:15 is....

Is the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 associated with the time of Jesus's return in the clouds of heaven in great Power and Glory...Yes? or No?

The abomination of desolation happened 70 years ago.

dougangel · May 28, 2015

michael144 said:
The abomination of desolation happened 70 years ago.

Mathew 24 is a controversial prophecy. Many people have different interpretations of it. It jumps around. that is not every thing Christ says happens one after another. And the language used, raises questions.
I still have questions about it.
There are 2 contexts or questions asked
when will the temple be destroyed ?
when will be the end of the age ?

This my thinking at the moment. Its by no means conclusive: That is, I'm still undecided.
I think the temple part is a repeating prophecy. That is the temple was destroyed in 70 ad and it is going to be destroyed again and the anti Christ is going to come and set up a temple again or Israel is, and the anti Christ is going to say he is God. This must be in a historical sense because Jesus is the new temple. The temple in 70 ad was no longer the righteous temple.
But the end of the age only happens once, at the end of course. This is plausible because there are 2 questions asked.

""Is the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 associated with the time of Jesus's return in the clouds of heaven in great Power and Glory...Yes? or No?""
To answer this:
Daniel mentions it and says to put this away till the end times.
Many things spoken about the anti Christ in Revelations hasn't been fulfilled and are shown to happen close to the end.
Paul 2 Thessalonians says Christ won't come back until the man of rebellion shows up.

I do think it is a end time prophecy, that is, it needs to be fulfilled.
There is even a possibility the anti Christ sets himself up in the mosk in Jerusalem and is a Muslim ??

Berean777 · May 29, 2015

dougangel said:
Mathew 24 is a controversial prophecy. Many people have different interpretations of it. It jumps around. that is not every thing Christ says happens one after another. And the language used, raises questions.
I still have questions about it.
There are 2 contexts or questions asked
when will the temple be destroyed ?
when will be the end of the age ?

This my thinking at the moment. Its by no means conclusive: That is, I'm still undecided.
I think the temple part is a repeating prophecy. That is the temple was destroyed in 70 ad and it is going to be destroyed again and the anti Christ is going to come and set up a temple again or Israel is, and the anti Christ is going to say he is God. This must be in a historical sense because Jesus is the new temple. The temple in 70 ad was no longer the righteous temple.
But the end of the age only happens once, at the end of course. This is plausible because there are 2 questions asked.

""Is the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 associated with the time of Jesus's return in the clouds of heaven in great Power and Glory...Yes? or No?""
To answer this:
Daniel mentions it and says to put this away till the end times.
Many things spoken about the anti Christ in Revelations hasn't been fulfilled and are shown to happen close to the end.
Paul 2 Thessalonians says Christ won't come back until the man of rebellion shows up.

I do think it is a end time prophecy, that is, it needs to be fulfilled.
There is even a possibility the anti Christ sets himself up in the mosk in Jerusalem and is a Muslim ??

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daily sacrifice in the New Covenant age that atones for our sins, is the works of Christ on the cross a Calvary.

The Abomination (most hated) that maketh desolate (destruction) takes the place of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God on the cross at Calvary.

1290 days the time given to the witnesses of Jesus to preach the everlasting gospel in all the world.

So the Abomination that maketh desolate must be a diversion to the plan of God in how one is saved. The way that this can be done if an earthly messiah comes and is worshipped in place of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

This happens at the 1290 symbolic days counting from the start of the great commission right until the symbolic two witnesses finish preaching the everlasting gospel to all the world. The true church is taken out of the way before the Abomination that maketh desolate.

It would have to be a future event where the majority of the unfaithful Christianity world sell out Christ and no longer preache nor observes in their hearts that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, instead say that Jesus is on earth and there is no need for the works on the cross for the atonement of sin, since Jesus is here in flesh and on earth.

That is why I have been saying all along that any manifestation of messiah on earth is the false messiah right up to the abomination that maketh desolate, the mother of all living idols, who is lucifer pretending to be messiah on earth.

The brilliant coming for the Lord is at the seventh trumpet and all human life at that point would have passed away. When the brilliant coming of the Lord comes the enemies cannot behold his coming and are forever burnt up and erased and the remaining elect are translated into their heavenly celestial bodies.

Any earthly kingdom reign agenda is one that invites the devil to be crowned on earth as messiah in place of the Lamb of God, who died on the cross for our sins.

Douggg · May 29, 2015

dougangel said:
There is even a possibility the anti Christ sets himself up in the mosk in Jerusalem and is a Muslim ??

No, not going to happen. The person has to be a Jew in order to become the King of Israel (the Antichrist). Christ means King of Israel, Mark 15:32. The person is the Antichrist only for the time the Jews embrace him as their King of Israel.

When he reveals that he is the man of sin, claiming to have achieved God hood, going into the temple sitting claiming to be God (the transgression of desolation Daniel 8) - the Jews will no longer embrace him as their King of Israel - ending his time as the Antichrist.

The person is then killed, brought back to life as the beast of Revelation (no longer the King of Israel - the Antichrist). That's why you don't read the term Antichrist in Revelation.

And the false prophet has the image made of the beast which is the abomination of desolation. Which the image (the abomination) standing in the holy place is different that the earlier act (the transgression) of the person sitting in the temple.

Matthew Twentyfour · May 29, 2015

parousia70 said:
The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father.

We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings)

Lets take your "Unless someone has documented evidence of this event..." litmus test and apply it to these and see if it works:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Isaiah 19:1-2] is clearly about the future."

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Zechariah 9:13-16] is clearly about the future."

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Ez 5:7-9] is clearly about the future."

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5] is clearly about the future."

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

"Unless someone has documented evidence of this event having already occurred, [Isa 52:10] is clearly about the future."

Apparently your position is that anytime the prophets describe God as coming to earth and doing a whole host of physical things, these things did not happen because there is no historical proof?
In reality, These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.

All those scriptures are prophecies relating to the Second Coming, still future.. The only one that's not is Exodus 33:20 and it's not about 70 AD either. John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 are irrelevant.

parousia70 said:
We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings)

Wishful preterist thinking. Some people just can't decipher prophecy.

Matthew Twentyfour · May 29, 2015

Interplanner · May 29, 2015

No Dougg, the unit is about 1st century Judea, as you can see from all the markings and from referring to the 490 year prophecy that ends within that time and with those features.

The leader of the 'rebellion that desolates' of Dan 8:13 is the person in mind. It is fascinating that regard for the temple is retained as long as possible by Jesus and the apostles even though the sacrificial system was relegated by the doctrines of the Gospel.

Interplanner · May 29, 2015

Matt24:
The NT puts a considerable emphasis on the concluding events of the nation of Israel in the generation from the Gospel to the DofJ. The 2nd coming is minor by comparison.

The greatest marketing trick foisted on the Bible since Luther's opponent with his indulgences is the futurization of the NT's passages which are actually about that decisive generation. Mt 21-24 especially is butchered in the process. These chapters are the "last warning" to Israel that it will be pulverized in that generation for rejecting the Gospel. Not that the crucifixion could have been avoided, but that the nation did not turn and largely become missionaries of the Gospel like the apostles and the 70, etc.

BABerean2 · May 29, 2015

dougangel said:
Mathew 24 is a controversial prophecy. Many people have different interpretations of it. It jumps around. that is not every thing Christ says happens one after another. And the language used, raises questions.
I still have questions about it.
There are 2 contexts or questions asked
when will the temple be destroyed ?
when will be the end of the age ?

This my thinking at the moment. Its by no means conclusive: That is, I'm still undecided.
I think the temple part is a repeating prophecy. That is the temple was destroyed in 70 ad and it is going to be destroyed again and the anti Christ is going to come and set up a temple again or Israel is, and the anti Christ is going to say he is God. This must be in a historical sense because Jesus is the new temple. The temple in 70 ad was no longer the righteous temple.
But the end of the age only happens once, at the end of course. This is plausible because there are 2 questions asked.

""Is the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 associated with the time of Jesus's return in the clouds of heaven in great Power and Glory...Yes? or No?""
To answer this:
Daniel mentions it and says to put this away till the end times.
Many things spoken about the anti Christ in Revelations hasn't been fulfilled and are shown to happen close to the end.
Paul 2 Thessalonians says Christ won't come back until the man of rebellion shows up.

I do think it is a end time prophecy, that is, it needs to be fulfilled.
There is even a possibility the anti Christ sets himself up in the mosk in Jerusalem and is a Muslim ??

The Abomination of Desolation has already happened at least two times.
167 BC by Antiochus Epiphanes, Events of 70 AD
Could it happen again? Maybe, however using Matthew chapter 24 as the proof text is a problem.

A tremendous amount of confusion comes from those who assume that the disciples only asked one question and that Jesus only answered one question in Matthew chapter 24.

Take a look at the study below for an understanding of both questions and both answers.

This was a Bible study for my Church Life Group.

The parallel Gospel study shows the "Abomination of Desolation" in Matthew 24.
........................................................

Matthew Chapter 24:

In Matthew chapter 24, Christ gives an explanation to four of His disciples.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1st Question: ________________________________________________

Christ has just told them the temple would be destroyed in the previous verse.

2nd Question: _______________________________________________

The Greek word “parousia” is used throughout the New Testament to describe His Second Coming.

………………………………...

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

………………………………...

Mat 24:5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Act 8:9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great oneSimon Magus was a deceiver. Confirmed by Jerome.)

………………………

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for allthese thingsmust come to pass, but the end is not yet.

During 66 AD the Roman 12th Legion under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem. For some unknown reason, he ordered his army to stop the seige. During the retreat the Romans were attacked by the Jews, who killed thousands of the Roman soldiers. (Josephus, War 2.19.7, 540) (Tacitus, The Histories V)

………………………

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There was a devastating earthquake around 60-62 AD that destroyed much of Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis. This was recorded by Tacitus in his writings as being during the 7th year of Nero.

………………………..

Mat 24:8 All thesearethe beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.

This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagoguethem that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

……………………….

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Col_4:14Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti_4:10For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

……………………….

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Was the Gospel preached into every nation in the modern world? No.

However, according to Paul it was preached into every nation of his known world.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, andwhich was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the worldshould be taxed.

Does this include Alaska and South America ???

………………………..

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We know sometime before the final siege of 70 AD the early Christians left the city of Jerusalem. Did they heed the warning in Matthew 24?

A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.

During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka. He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.

While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.

During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessedarethe barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Almost all scholars agree that the following verse is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What do we find in the last half of Matthew chapter 24?

_________________________________________________________

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summerisnigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,evenat the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth noman,no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noewere,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood theywere eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and tookthem all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Twowomen shall begrinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Based on the language and the context in verses 24:38-39, what happens to those taken in verses 24:40-41?

__________________________________________________________

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for, in His answer to the first question? _____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for in His answer to the second question? ____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________

parousia70 · May 29, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
All those scriptures are prophecies relating to the Second Coming, still future..

Incorrect.
Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31.

All past "comings" of God.
Just like this one, a past "Day of the Lord" event in 539 BC when the Medes Destroyed Babylon.:
Isaiah 13
Proclamation Against Babylon
13 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

2 “Lift up a banner on the high mountain,
Raise your voice to them;
Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded My sanctified ones;
I have also called My mighty ones for My anger—
Those who rejoice in My exaltation.”

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains,
Like that of many people!
A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together!
The Lord of hosts musters
The army for battle.
5 They come from a far country,
From the end of heaven—
The Lord and His weapons of indignation,
To destroy the whole land.

6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
8 And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

11 “I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.
14 It shall be as the hunted gazelle,
And as a sheep that no man takes up;
Every man will turn to his own people,
And everyone will flee to his own land.
15 Everyone who is found will be thrust through,
And everyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
16 Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.

17 “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
Their eye will not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

AGAIN Friend, This was an historical Event that took place in 539 BC when God used the MEDES to Destroy Babylon.

Notice how the prophet describes this already fulfilled Judgement:

6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!

They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

Sound Familiar?. Sounds like world wide, even universe collapsing language but the context is clearly and undeniably the 539 BC destruction of Babylon by the Medeo Persian army.
This is how the Bible, time and again, describes the Fall of a Nation.

Some people just can't decipher prophecy.

You are right about that.

dougangel · May 29, 2015

parousia70 said:
Incorrect.
Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31.

Incorrect.
your right it is an analogy. But not for the end of the world.
When it comes up in scripture. It's describing Suns going dark, Moons going dark, Stars falling out of the sky.
It's symbolic for Darkness. A nation or empire going into darkness. Calamity or captivity or destruction.
So in Matt 24 Jesus is describing Israel going into darkness in 70 AD. Israel ceased to be a nation until 1948.
So it's those nations being named going into darkness not the whole world. I don't know how you jump to that.

vinsight4u · May 29, 2015

Interplanner · May 29, 2015

The NT never says that nationhood for Israel matters in the NT's doctrine of the end of the world and day of judgement.

Berean777 · May 30, 2015

The Abomination that maketh desolate is put in place of the daily sacrifice. The daily sacrifice is the atonement for the sins of the world posted on the cross at Calvary.

Historically since the everlasting gospel continues to be preached and continues to be accepted in mens hearts therefore the Abomination that maketh desolate has not come yet.

The Abomination that maketh desolate when taking the place of the atoning works of Christ on the cross must continue until it be destroyed by God.

This Abomination would continue until it is taken out by God and it needs to be at the 1290 symbolic days which is 30 symbolic days after the two symbolic witnesses in John's Revelation have finished preaching the everlasting gospel in all the world afte 1260 symbolic days. It is clear that the first century Abomination in the temple is not THE (definite article) Abomination that maketh desolate because after all the gospel continued without interruption to be spread throughout the world.

We are therefore looking at a future unprecedented event that completely removes the ordinances of the church and places abomination in place of the ordinances. This has to be the works of the beast of the bottomless Pitt who takes out the church by placing himself in place of Christ's sacrifice for the atonement of our sins.

I truly believe that the only way this can be done is if the world accepts an earthly messiah.

Matthew Twentyfour · May 30, 2015

parousia70 said:
Incorrect.
Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31.

All past "comings" of God.
Just like this one, a past "Day of the Lord" event in 539 BC when the Medes Destroyed Babylon.:
Isaiah 13
Proclamation Against Babylon
13 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

2 “Lift up a banner on the high mountain,
Raise your voice to them;
Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded My sanctified ones;
I have also called My mighty ones for My anger—
Those who rejoice in My exaltation.”

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains,
Like that of many people!
A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together!
The Lord of hosts musters
The army for battle.
5 They come from a far country,
From the end of heaven—
The Lord and His weapons of indignation,
To destroy the whole land.

6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
8 And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

11 “I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.
14 It shall be as the hunted gazelle,
And as a sheep that no man takes up;
Every man will turn to his own people,
And everyone will flee to his own land.
15 Everyone who is found will be thrust through,
And everyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
16 Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.

17 “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
Their eye will not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

AGAIN Friend, This was an historical Event that took place in 539 BC when God used the MEDES to Destroy Babylon.

Notice how the prophet describes this already fulfilled Judgement:

6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!

They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

Sound Familiar?. Sounds like world wide, even universe collapsing language but the context is clearly and undeniably the 539 BC destruction of Babylon by the Medeo Persian army.
This is how the Bible, time and again, describes the Fall of a Nation.

You are right about that.

You might want to check your history books as someone else already said, "The Medes never destroyed Babylon."

Babylon eventually fell to the Assyrians in 689 BCE after a lengthy siege, and Sennacherib put an end to the "Babylonian problem" by utterly destroying the city and even the mound on which it stood by diverting the water of the surrounding canals over the site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennacherib

The Assyrians destroy Babylon
During Isaiah’s lifetime, the Assyrian Empire ruled most of the Middle East. The Assyrians controlled many foreign cities, including Babylon. After Isaiah made his prediction, Babylon rebelled against the Assyrians several times. When Sennacherib, king of the Assyrians, captured the city in 689 B.C., he decided to destroy the city forever so that it could never rebel again. Sennacherib made this inscription about his victory:

“I made its destruction more complete than by a flood. That in days to come the site of that city, and (its) temples and gods, might not be remembered, I completely blotted it out with (floods) of water and made it like a meadow” (Daniel D. Luckenbill, Ancient Records of Assyria and Babylonia, 1926-1927, Vol. 2, p. 152).

Isaiah’s prophecy was not fulfilled when Sennacherib destroyed Babylon. Isaiah predicted that the Medes would attack Babylon. But it was the Assyrians who attacked and destroyed the city first.

When Isaiah wrote his prediction, the Medes were weak. Most of the Medes were ruled by other nations, and the remaining Medes were not unified (The Cambridge History of Iran, 1985, Vol. 2, p. 80). It would have been impossible for them to capture or destroy the strong city of Babylon. Isaiah’s prediction appeared to be wrong. When the Assyrians destroyed Babylon in 689 B.C., Isaiah’s prediction appeared to be completely impossible. The Medes could not fight against a city that was gone!

http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today/a-prophecy-about-babylon-confirms-the-accuracy-of-the-bible

Obviously Isaiah 13 is a prophecy about Mystery Babylon in the tribulation, still future. None of the verses you boldfaced in Isaiah 13 happened in 539 BC or 689 BC either.

Berean777 · May 30, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
You might want to check your history books as someone else already said, "The Medes never destroyed Babylon."

Babylon eventually fell to the Assyrians in 689 BCE after a lengthy siege, and Sennacherib put an end to the "Babylonian problem" by utterly destroying the city and even the mound on which it stood by diverting the water of the surrounding canals over the site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennacherib

The Assyrians destroy Babylon
During Isaiah’s lifetime, the Assyrian Empire ruled most of the Middle East. The Assyrians controlled many foreign cities, including Babylon. After Isaiah made his prediction, Babylon rebelled against the Assyrians several times. When Sennacherib, king of the Assyrians, captured the city in 689 B.C., he decided to destroy the city forever so that it could never rebel again. Sennacherib made this inscription about his victory:

“I made its destruction more complete than by a flood. That in days to come the site of that city, and (its) temples and gods, might not be remembered, I completely blotted it out with (floods) of water and made it like a meadow” (Daniel D. Luckenbill, Ancient Records of Assyria and Babylonia, 1926-1927, Vol. 2, p. 152).

Isaiah’s prophecy was not fulfilled when Sennacherib destroyed Babylon. Isaiah predicted that the Medes would attack Babylon. But it was the Assyrians who attacked and destroyed the city first.

When Isaiah wrote his prediction, the Medes were weak. Most of the Medes were ruled by other nations, and the remaining Medes were not unified (The Cambridge History of Iran, 1985, Vol. 2, p. 80). It would have been impossible for them to capture or destroy the strong city of Babylon. Isaiah’s prediction appeared to be wrong. When the Assyrians destroyed Babylon in 689 B.C., Isaiah’s prediction appeared to be completely impossible. The Medes could not fight against a city that was gone!

http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today/a-prophecy-about-babylon-confirms-the-accuracy-of-the-bible

Obviously Isaiah 13 is a prophecy about Mystery Babylon in the tribulation, still future. None of the verses you boldfaced in Isaiah 13 happened in 539 BC or 689 BC either.

This is a future event and the seventh resurrected king of the first beast, that is earthly Babylon is exposed in the following chapter 14 of Isaiah.

Isaiah 14:4
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

The beast of the bottomless pit aka Lucifer aka Satan is described below as ruling all the nations of the world.

Isaiah 14:6
He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

The following versus describe a world that is emptied of human life as the expression the earth is at rest and no man comes to cut down any trees because most people of the world are killed off:

Isaiah 14:7-8
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

These events come about after the sixth trumpet is sounded and the WOES start being poured out on earth to make it an inhabitable place to live in:

Isaiah 13:12-13
I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

At the symbolic 1290 days Satan appears in human form on earth and the verse below declares his coming :

Isaiah 14:9
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy COMING:
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth;
it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Satan who is the Abomination that maketh desolate will place himself on earth as the messiah to be worshipped and his followers will say have you become mortal/weak like us and human like us:

Isaiah 14:10
All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Satan's pomp and ceromony of his earthly coming is planned by God for his destruction, in God's land/earth he will be destroyed by God:

Isaiah 14:11
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Now we are introduced to the introduction of the Abomination that maketh desolate and to his identity:

Isaiah 14:12-15
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the BOTTOMLESS PIT.

Satan is the king of Babylon, but who is he a symbol of?

Isaiah 14:25
That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

Now go back to Isaiah 13 God declares that he will destroy earthly Babylon and its Assyrian king aka Satan in his own land meaning earth, as he did to Sodom and Gomorrah and this means that it will be a cosmic judgement that will cause calamity on earth and move earth from its habitable zone, therefore rendering all life support absent and human life barely existent.

Isaiah 13:19
And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

This is a future prophesy of Satan's Pompous coming as the earthly messiah, which leads to his ultimate destruction along with the earthly realm that supports earthly Kingdom Babylon and all life. If God didn't shorten those days, not even the elect could survive this cosmic onslaught from God.

The only question regarding Matthew 24:15

Newbie

Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Newbie

Regular

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Newbie

Newbie

Newbie

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Regular

Contributor

Newbie

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency