The oceans are getting hotter = more heatwaves

[AV1611VET]

In a way, yes.

Win, lose, or draw, do you think nature will hold a grudge against us?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Do you think it's nature's way of fighting back?

No. Despite some people's compulsion to capitalize "Nature", it is not a intelligent agent that can "fight back". What we call nature is merely the natural responses of natural systems. No intent needed.

 

[AV1611VET]

No. Despite some people's compulsion to capitalize "Nature", it is not a intelligent agent that can "fight back". What we call nature is merely the natural responses of natural systems. No intent needed.

Thomas Malthus had something to say about that.

I have a feeling he would disagree with you on scientific grounds.

 

[dlamberth]

Win, lose, or draw, do you think nature will hold a grudge against us?

Nature does not hold emotions like that.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Thomas Malthus had something to say about that.

I have a feeling he would disagree with you on scientific grounds.

That "Nature" had emotions or intent? If he did, he'd be wrong.

 

[eclipsenow]

Do you think it's nature's way of fighting back?

What kind of question is that? Honestly. No I don't think "Nature is fighting back" as if "nature" were a thing that had agency. But the laws of physics hold. In one geological era 600 million years ago volcanos poked through the frozen sheets of ice that covered this ancient "snowball earth" period. There was no rain or snow on earth - the whole ball was a frozen block of ice and the hydrological cycle had frozen. The volcanos released so much extra CO2 that the atmosphere got up to something like 20% CO2 (deadly to breathe!) but this was a GOOD thing as 1/ there was no air breathing life at the time and 2/ it finally warmed the earth up enough that it 'unlocked' the snowball earth period. The 1000 year storms afterwards carried enough CO2 out of the air that the rain was basically acid that melted rock.

That was ONE time CO2 warmed the earth and saved life on earth.

There have been a number of extinction level events where super-greenhouses seem to have DESTROYED life on earth. Periods of super-volcanism where the volcanos release hundreds of times the CO2 they do today.

So it's complicated. CO2 is not 'bad'. It's a gas that retains heat - and given the context that can be beneficial for life or bad for it. At the moment, with our current civilisation and especially our agricultural setup, global warming is 'bad' for us. But it's a race between what we're doing to the climate and other tech that might arrive in time to save us from the WORST effects - the droughts and floods that will reduce our agricultural output maybe 20% by 2050 - maybe more - as we have a few extra billion mouths to feed.

But by then, maybe we will have Precision Fermentation to feed us? Just too bad about the natural world if we let global warming run amok. The world God loves.

 

[sjastro]

Well ... if you read genesis literally it uses the word YOM .... everywhere else in the bible it is considered one literal day.

Sure ... there have been many anti-christs .... but in the end times there is THE anti-christ, a false religious power that will deceive the all the world .... and that power is the papal system.

Message to all 1.3 billion Roman Catholics, you're not Christian for recognizing an anti-Christ as your spiritual leader.
(The index finger is feeling a bit itchy for hitting the report button......)

Solar power for the masses isn't ready yet .... it may be in the future.

Key Points. In 2020, U.S. greenhouse gas emissions totaled 5,981 million metric tons (13.2 trillion pounds) of carbon dioxide equivalents. This total represents a 7 percent decrease since 1990 and a 20 percent decrease since 2005

Didn't see the elephant in the room?
The figures are not that impressive since 2020 was a COVID year where economic growth and industrial production declined resulting in lower emissions.
Fast forward to 2021 and 2022 and America's emissions increased over 2020 levels as economic growth rebounded.

ok ... so we have made some progress ..... by how much have we prolonged the earth's "life" ? How many years? What is the calculation of the improvement?

How much has the temperature risen in the last 1,000 years?

Scientists make statements about "climate change" that they really don't know ....

Historical records show temperatures have typically fluctuated up or down by about 0.2°F per decade over the past 1,000 years.

Global Warming Could Hit Rates Unseen in 1,000 Years.

Yet actual recorded data only goes back to 1880 .. which is only 143 years ago. So they aren't looking at actual recorded "historical records" because it's only be officially recorded since 1880.

Greenhouse gas concentrations are at their highest levels in 2 million years​

https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/what-is-climate-change

They have no idea what has been taking place over the last 1,000 years much less 2 million years.

You must be one significant individual for using yourself as a barometer for scientific knowledge and understanding.
It doesn't work that way as scientists know far more than you do, its their profession.
Scientists drill ice cores in Greenland and Antarctica to depths were the snow was initially deposited millions of years ago.
Inside these ice cores are bubbles of trapped air from which CO₂ levels can be measured at the time when the deposition occurred.

 

[AV1611VET]

What kind of question is that? Honestly. No I don't think "Nature is fighting back" as if "nature" were a thing that had agency. But the laws of physics hold.

If you take a rubber band and stretch it, it will pull back.

That's what I'm talking about.

Is this nature's way of "pulling back"?

 

[eclipsenow]

Well ... if you read genesis literally it uses the word YOM .... everywhere else in the bible it is considered one literal day.

Wow - so we MUST read it literally! Except, when Romeo does his famous metaphor - every word in it is literal. "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun!"

Light still means source of illumination.
Sun still means giant ball of fusing hydrogen millions and millions of miles across.
Romeo means these words as individual words - but we still recognise what's going on because of this thing called context.
Context - the way the individual words are put together - tell us how to read the words

Sure ... there have been many anti-christs .... but in the end times there is THE anti-christ, a false religious power that will deceive the all the world .... and that power is the papal system.

I'm Amil - and don't need to you explain various futurist timetables to me. Please go across to the Eschatology forum if you want to do that - I've been there - done that - and futurists are all fighting in there like cats in a bag unable to agree on almost anything.

Solar power for the masses isn't ready yet .... it may be in the future.

This is like your focus on an individual word to try and disprove Theistic Evolution.

Solar power IS ready - just as concrete is ready to build a house. We don't build the whole house out of concrete as we want plumbing and windows and roof tiles and carpet and TV's and fridges and all the modern consumer goods. We don't sleep on the concrete. But it can be the strong backbone of the house.

The intermittency of wind and solar is NOT new news to the engineers working on this. They have decades of weather data to analyse. Quality people work on it. EG: Professor Andrew Blakers won the “Queen Elizabeth prize for Engineering” - like a Nobel Prize for Engineering. He models it and explains it can be done with Overbuild, Geographic Spread, and OFF-RIVER pumped hydro storage.

OVERBUILD: If your wind and solar output halves in winter, then double your renewables! At 1/4 the cost of nuclear (Lazard) - wind and solar are now cheap enough. This reduces storage. A near 100 per cent renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage Even Australia’s TERRIBLE La Nina year of 2022 only needs Overbuild of 70% - so a 170% renewable grid. It almost eliminates storage. A near 100 per cent renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

GEOGRAPHIC SPREAD: Overbuild works best when spreading the weather-risk across a wide area. HVDC transmission is so powerful it only loses 3% per 1000 km. That means Perth sunshine can power dark Sydney evenings 4000 km away, only losing 12%, while sending ‘sunlight’ live around the curvature of the Earth! So Finland getting power from Spain or even Africa is now possible. Transmission reduces storage costs. $100 billion and at least the Australian electricity sector is done. For $100 billion, Australia could have a low cost and reliable zero emissions grid

OFF-RIVER PHES STORAGE: OFF RIVER closed loop PHES avoids environmental damage of fragile river ecosystems, avoids expensive spillways (for 1 in 500 year flash floods on river), and is faster and cheaper. When finished, pump the water in from the nearest river - which can be dozens of km’s away. It will lose some water to evaporation, but only 1/5th the water required to cool thermal coal or nuclear. Satellite maps show most continents have over 100 TIMES more sites than they need - whether big or small. Pick your best 1% and you’re done. Professor Andrew Blakers presents the data.

Global Atlas here Global Greenfield Pumped Hydro Energy Storage Atlas Renewables are SO cheap solar is doubling every 4 years worldwide. This can happen just with SWW - Solar, Wind, and Water.
Batteries of gravity and water: we found 1,500 new pumped hydro sites next to existing reservoirs

Solar and wind are now the cheapest power sources by far, even with the costs of transmission and storage factored in. ​

Solar is doubling worldwide every 4 years, which is much faster than oil’s doubling every decade in the 20th century.​

In the next 10 to 15 years we will see exponential growth of all renewables and EV's. Remember how exponential curves start of really slow for a long long time, and then suddenly everything happens at once. EG: The old example of bacteria in a petri dish. Assume you know it doubles every minute, but the dish will be full in an hour. When is the dish half full? In 59 minutes! The bacteria has been almost invisible for 50 minutes then in the last 10 minutes goes from a tiny blotch to 1/16 the dish, 1/8 the dish, 1/4, 1/2, and suddenly the dish is full! Right now - solar is just becoming visible. It’s been doubling for a while. But now that they are so cheap - the exponential is taking off. We will be SHOCKED at how fast things happen. 10% of all new cars sold globally are EV's. By 2030 that should be about 50%. Australia will be 80 to 90% renewable by 2030! There's a huge surge in solar production under way – and Australia could show the world how to use it

Has science ever been wrong? of course ..... first it was global cooling ....

Sorry but you don't get to throw around more anti-science until we've dealt with the last lot.

You raised an objection in a thread I started.
Did you even want to hear an answer?
See, I have this saying.
Die-hard climate deniers don't debate, they rotate.
Is that what you're doing now? I hope not. I thought we might share actual data and ideas - but if you're just here to fire off every anti-climate meme you've ever heard without even considering the replies - you're rotating. But I don't know you - so I want to give you the benefit of a doubt. What do you make of the 1970's global cooling scare? The science? Or the media?

 

[eclipsenow]

If you take a rubber band and stretch it, it will pull back.

That's what I'm talking about.

Is this nature's way of "pulling back"?

I don't know that you know what you're asking.
I already answered.
God upholds the laws of physics until his return, when we will be given new bodies with new physics. Then guess what? There will still be some laws of physics, maybe renewed constantly (different entropy laws to today) - because God has promised to 'renovate' or 'upgrade' this physical universe. Jesus was raised with a physical body. God loves physics and matter. Do you?

 

[sjastro]

If you take a rubber band and stretch it, it will pull back.

That's what I'm talking about.

Is this nature's way of "pulling back"?

Congratulations AV there is some science in your post.
Nature "pulling back" is explained in this post.

 

[AV1611VET]

Congratulations AV there is some science in your post.
Nature "pulling back" is explained in this post.

Thank you, sir!

A rubber band is about the extent of my scientific expertise.

 

[eclipsenow]

Thank you, sir!

A rubber band is about the extent of my scientific expertise.

If you are actually open to the rubber band as a metaphor of what the climate science is saying - and this is not some kind of semantic game to pull us into a theological slap-down - then yes. In climate terms, the rubber band is already dangerously stretched. It took decades to stretch it out this bad, and if we just left it to nature - it would take centuries to relax that rubber band again. But there are plenty of smart people working on this from a variety of angles.

I'm convinced that renewables are now cheap enough to Overbuild to the point where we don't worry about winter so much. If some country IS worried about winter, nuclear is another good option. When we "Electrify Everything" so many things will get better - health, national security, local economic security, everything.

But here's an absolutely AMAZING technology IF we can get the price down! It's currently too expensive to feed the world - but they think economies of scale will get the price down.

IF it gets cheap enough, I can only think of this as a gift from God. (In that he made smart people who can use a generous world to provide our needs.)

IF we get it cheap enough - soon we’ll be brewing up most of our food in factories. It’s called “Precision Fermentation” and it just needs electricity, water, and a tiny sprinkling of mineral fertilisers. It lets us grow all the fats and proteins we need. Food technicians can form and flavour it into fish-sticks, chicken tenders and bacon strips. The best bit? It could feed 10 billion people from a tiny area the size of greater London! Historically we’ve chopped down 2 billion hectares to graze livestock for very inefficient proteins and fats. That's enough space for 3 TRILLION trees. Let's regrow that. It would soak up ALL historical CO2 emissions. It would feed the world abundant cheap food that's safe from flood and drought - and will not cause pandemics like Covid. It would save nature, giving forest homes to countless animals. And it would solve climate change. Win win win. "Brave Robot" are already selling PF ice-cream and cream cheese, and others are making palm oil and yoghurt and soon there will be lots of PF milk. Please watch George Monbiot explain more here - just 6 minutes. It's the best technology since renewable energy:

 

[Hans Blaster]

Didn't see the elephant in the room?
The figures are not that impressive since 2020 was a COVID year where economic growth and industrial production declined resulting in lower emissions.
Fast forward to 2021 and 2022 and America's emissions increased over 2020 levels as economic growth rebounded.

Despite the rebound, each of those years had less US GG emissions than 2018. The 2022 value is -4.8% below 2018. Clearly more work needs to be done.

 

[eclipsenow]

Despite the rebound, each of those years had less US GG emissions than 2018. The 2022 value is -4.8% below 2018. Clearly more work needs to be done.

Take heart - it's coming

Solar is doubling every 4 years.

Like all exponentials, nothing appears to be happening for a while then BOOM it takes over!

"Gathering steam..."

 

[Shemjaza]

Do you think it's nature's way of fighting back?

Personally I think this is a bad way of looking at the situation.

Nature isn't some goddess we're offending... it's the environment we live in.

Pollution and climate change are consequences of actions not punishments for moral failings.

If you smoke in bed you have a chance of burning your house down... but that isn't your house punishing you. And the fact that you are freezing cold in your burnt out ruin isn't your house holding a grudge either.

(EDIT: Phone based typoes and auto correct.)

 

[eclipsenow]

Personally I think this is a bad way of looking at the situation.

Nature isn't some goddess we're offending... it's the environment we live in.

Pollution and climate change are consequences of actions not punishments for moral failings.

Is you smoke in bed you have a chance of burning your house down... but that isn't your house punishing you. And the fact that your are freezing cold in your burnt out ruin isn't your house holding a bridge either.

Yes - it's his personification of the consequences that made me think AV was running some kind of theological trap. But if he's genuinely asking - in a crude manner - what this all means, maybe we need to cut him some slack and think of this awkward phrasing as internet 'noise'? ('Noise' is not about sound but I'm using the term from welfare communication theory = any psychological or cultural or environmental baggage and assumptions that prevents communication.)

 

[dlamberth]

Do you think it's nature's way of fighting back?

I think it's a sign that humanity is way out of balance with Nature.

 

[sjastro]

Despite the rebound, each of those years had less US GG emissions than 2018. The 2022 value is -4.8% below 2018. Clearly more work needs to be done.

This is a legacy of that president of yours who refers to serial liars as cereal liars.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

We will adapt, but it will be costly both in human lives and dollars.

Yes, and we still may not survive.