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The oceans are getting hotter = more heatwaves

eclipsenow

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In dispensation theology, which I subscribe to,
What a terrible modern idea. It's responsible for the rise of messed-up end times cults that read Revelation as some future literal timetable written to the last 7 years of human history (when the whole bible is actually pointing to or looking back on the death and resurrection of Christ), or terrible outcomes in irrational thinking about the overall Covenant theology of grace in 2 covenants (testaments), and also resulting in fuzzy thinking about science. It is responsible for much of the poor witness of modern Christians who don't know what to do with science and climate change.
 
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AV1611VET

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Just thought you might want to know that God cares about His creation as well as us.

This is great - this means because it is His creation, I don't have to care about anything. Slaves? Hey - it's His creation. My brother being poor? It's His creation. Someone torturing the children next door? Hey - it's His creation. I can just sit back and take it easy because it's not MY creation - it's His creation! I love the "logic" in these applied ethics of yours AV - I never realised I could be "Chill like that."

You realize I was quoting your caption, don't you?
 
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AV1611VET

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AV1611VET

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What a terrible modern idea.

More Pauline than modern.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

It's responsible for the rise of messed-up end times cults that read Revelation as some future literal timetable written to the last 7 years of human history ...

Where are you getting your info from?

Here are the seven dispensations, and the judgements that ended them:
  1. Innocence -- expulsion from the Garden
  2. Conscience -- the Flood
  3. Human Government -- Tower of Babel
  4. Promise -- Egyptian captivity
  5. Law -- the Cross
  6. Grace -- the Tribulation
  7. Kingdom (Millennial Reign) -- Great White Throne Judgement
You can see then, that Revelation is not "written to the last 7 years of human history."

In fact, mankind is currently in Revelation 3.

The Rapture, due any time now, starts Chapter 4.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
 
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eclipsenow

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You realize I was quoting your caption, don't you?
Not at all!
You were distorting it.
What was your Edit?
What did you intend to convey in your edit?
Come on now - fess up!
 
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AV1611VET

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Not at all!
You were distorting it.
What was your Edit?
What did you intend to convey in your edit?
Come on now - fess up!

That you either made a typo, or "his" means someone other than God.
 
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eclipsenow

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We do not have to capitalise his in a sentence about God. It's almost superstitious, and I know theologians that don't like it. It does not ad anything to the comprehensibility of the writing and is not.

But really - I think you were trying to over-emphasise that the world is God's to the point where we are not required to do anything in it or about it. Which contravenes our responsibility to love our neighbour and not commit crimes against God's creation.
 
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AV1611VET

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But really - I think you were trying to over-emphasise that the world is God's to the point where we are not required to do anything in it or about it. Which contravenes our responsibility to love our neighbour and not commit crimes against God's creation.

Okay -- this is getting out of hand.

Let's get back to my original point.

You: The oceans are getting hotter = more heatwaves.

Me: Signs of the times. :)

'Nuff said.
 
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eclipsenow

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Okay -- this is getting out of hand.

Let's get back to my original point.

You: The oceans are getting hotter = more heatwaves.

Me: Signs of the times. :)

'Nuff said.
Except not really - because
A: Dispensationalism is an incorrect recent invention
B: Revelation does not map history - the cycles in it are a thematic tour through history, with each theme ending in the gospel promise of judgement day. EG: The end of Chapter 6 really IS the end of the world - and there are many others in Revelation. It's not a timeline, it's a waltz.
C: Amillenialism is the correct view. John wrote to Roman Christians about to undergo persecution, and through that series of themes wrote to us about how to take heart in various situations and temptations. As such, Revelation does not give us a HINT at all about when the Lord might return. Climate change is therefore a 'sign of the times' only in that it shows we are still this side of eternity. There have been famines for 2000 years - and now we ARE doing something to the earth that could increase that. The Lord could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just. Don't. Know!
D: Global Warming is thus a moral responsibility we have to love our neighbour - whether they are people in developing countries, people in the next generation, or our fellow creatures that enjoy this planet.

For example you raised Ephesians 1:10 as some kind of evidence of dispensationalism. But the ESV is a much better version, and renders these verses with more modern language in a more accurate rendition.


In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Fullness of time.
Nothing about different 'chapters' in that time - different dispensations.
Instead, Ephesians shows us that there was always the ONE plan - that the whole Old Covenant was to show us the way forward into this New Covenant. All in the fullness of time.
 
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eclipsenow

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Theology and scriptures have exactly 0 (zero) to do with ocean temperature measurements.
Yes - apologies as this is not really the forum for this sort of chat - but I just wanted to show AV that there are some of us church-types that actually do take science seriously - and why theologically. I'm horrified by how many glib reactions I encounter to our current predicament from the church. Most of the Sydney Anglicans I encounter take climate science very seriously.
 
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eleos1954

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Read the article - it is clear they have instruments measuring GLOBAL heating of the oceans that are blowing the old records out of the water. It might not sound like a lot, but every tenth of a degree in ocean warming is vastly more heat trapped than atmospheric warming, mainly because of the extra density of water and how it works. Basically 'global warming' should be called 'ocean warming' because most of the heat ends up in there. And when the ocean physics burps out even a fraction of that extra heat, we're going to feel it.

It's because too many American Christians are influenced by Young Earth Creationism. They don't appreciate the work that's been done on the genre of Genesis - and think being hyper literalistic is the only 'godly' way to read Genesis 1. They don't even let themselves see the literalistic contradictions between Chapter 1 and 2!

Reading Genesis is more like reading Shakespeare than an engineering manual or literal history. There’s a false antagonism here. We don’t have a bad reaction to Shakespeare's metaphors in the line - "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the east, and Juliet is the sun!"

We don’t turn around and complain "What nonsense! There's no way any truth is being conveyed in this nonsense because Juliet is obviously not a giant ball of fusing hydrogen millions and millions of miles across!" That would be ridiculous. That would be misunderstanding the genre of the text, reading the poetic as literal. Sometimes poetry is the best genre to explain certain truths, like love or dramatic theology!

Dr John Dickson - with a Phd in history as well as degrees in theology - unpacks Genesis:


"In Genesis 1, multiples of seven appear in extraordinary ways. For ancient readers, who were accustomed to taking notice of such things, these multiples of seven conveyed a powerful message. Seven was the divine number, the number of goodness and perfection. Its omnipresence in the opening chapter of the Bible makes an unmistakable point about the origin and nature of the universe itself. Consider the following: The first sentence of Genesis 1 consists of seven Hebrew words. Instantly, the ancient reader’s attention is focused;

The second sentence contains exactly fourteen words. A pattern is developing;
The word ‘earth’—one half of the created sphere—appears in the chapter 21 times;
The word ‘heaven’—the other half of the created sphere—also appears 21 times.
‘God’, the lead actor, is mentioned exactly 35 times.
The refrain ‘and it was so,’ which concludes each creative act, occurs exactly seven times;
The summary statement ‘God saw that it was good’ also occurs seven times;
It hardly needs to be pointed out that the whole account is structured around seven scenes or seven days of the week.

The artistry of the chapter is stunning and, to ancient readers, unmistakable. It casts the creation as a work of art, sharing in the perfection of God and deriving from him. My point is obvious: short of including a prescript for the benefit of modern readers the original author could hardly have made it clearer that his message is being conveyed through literary rather than prosaic means. What we find in Genesis 1 is not exactly poetry of the type we find in the biblical book of Psalms but nor is it recognizable as simple prose. It is a rhythmic, symbolically-charged inventory of divine commands." The genre of Genesis 1: an historical approach - Centre for Public Christianity More at his podcast. Six Days - Undeceptions
Has science ever been wrong? of course ..... first it was global cooling .... now it is global warming .... and because they really don't know .... they call it "climate change" .... well yeah the climate is going to change .... has been going back and forth for a long time and will continue to do so until the Lord returns ..... you think mankind can actually control the weather? Now ... certainly we should try and reduce pollution ... that's just common sense ..... but to think we can actually control the weather is non-sense. This is being put forth as a means of power and control over people. Personally, I believe it will happen (control) and this will usher in the of the anti-christ controlling the world.

Literal days in Genesis ..... creation sealed with the 7th day Sabbath .... also genealogy in the bible being meticulously kept track of. From Adam & Eve going forward around 6,000 literal years.
 
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eclipsenow

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Has science ever been wrong? of course ..... first it was global cooling ....
People remember media hype, not the state of the actual science. Have you read a summary of climate science from the 1970's? The science was that the majority of papers predicted warming. Indeed, the warming power of CO2 was confirmed by Eunice Foote in 1856. Only 10% of papers in the 1970's predicted cooling, and of them, lead authors soon retracted their work. It was all a misunderstanding about how much the sulfur in coal reflected the sunlight away. It's still valid science, and we might use "Solar Radiation Management" by flying dust up 20km to reflect a tiny amount of sunlight to cool the earth. But the math was complex - and the lead author soon admitted he got it wrong. But the media went CRAZY with it - and did not reflect what the majority of papers were saying. So NO - climate science did NOT as a majority predict cooling in the 1970s! That's just factually incorrect.
What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?

Please get back to us that you now know this - as it is a matter of conscience now for you not to repeat this myth again now that you know it is not true.

Indeed, so many predicted warming that movies like Soylent Green showed global warming. The Bell Telephone company reflected the state of the science catastrophic warming way back in 1958!


now it is global warming .... and because they really don't know ....

They do really know. The physics of how CO2 traps heat can be proved in any decent physics lab - not that I'm a physicist but I've asked them and seen videos demonstrating how they do it and read the history of climate science.

Also, it's ALWAYS been climate science. The media term used for pop culture shifted from global warming to "climate change" shifted under the George W Bush administration when the speech writer was told to look for a less threatening term, because Dubbya had too many mates in the oil industry and couldn't upset them. So the term "climate change" became fashionable. But global warming is still as good as any lay person description. But the scientific papers are written within the realm of climate sciences.
Get it? There's the scientific academic terminology, and the popular press.
See - even the popular term "Ice Age" is wrong. It's a glacial period, and we're now in an interglacial period.

Technically, from a true climate science point of view, we're in an Ice Age now. Why? Because there's some ice on the planet! Scientific nomenclatures can be quite different from popular ones - and it has nothing to do with whether or not the scientific enterprise is some kind of scam!

they call it "climate change" .... well yeah the climate is going to change .... has been going back and forth for a long time and will continue to do so until the Lord returns .....
Yes the climate has changed in the DEEP past - and the climate scientists mostly know why. Continental drift, asteroid impacts, volcanism, Milankovitch "wobbles" in the earth's orbit and rotation and tilt, and since the dinosaur era - the sun getting 2% warmer. ALL play an impact!

you think mankind can actually control the weather?
Climate is global temperatures as measured across decades. Weather is what happens today and tomorrow. Climate impacts the weather much like weighting dice - but is not direct control. Or imagine it this way. Weather is a toddler making waves in the bath - the weather is the waves in the water. Climate change is someone left the tap on. Soon that bath will overflow and maybe drown the toddler!

Now ... certainly we should try and reduce pollution ... that's just common sense ..... but to think we can actually control the weather is non-sense.
Someone left the tap on. We keep mining and burning fossil fuels and adding CO2 to the atmosphere. We can measure what CO2 does in a lab. Even Mythbusters have done this! Good luck to any conspiracy theories trying to lie about what CO2 does. This next test can be replicated in any physics lab on the planet!
Do a little maths - and the CO2 is trapping 4 Hiroshima bombs worth of heat every second - but spread out across the entire planet. The basic physics of how CO2 traps heat is known.

This is being put forth as a means of power and control over people.
Oh no! The world's governments are going to legislate we have to move to local renewable energy that our own nations produce - meaning we have more domestic control over our energy prices! Oh no! We won't be buying gas off the Russians and Middle East any more - people who don't like western democracies very much.
Oh no! The cheapest power we've ever produced in a MORE stable grid! Oh no! Filling up your electric car from solar panels on your roof = free motoring. How terrible!


Personally, I believe it will happen (control) and this will usher in the of the anti-christ controlling the world.
I believe the bible and believe the Lord will return one day. But I'm Amil - and the theologians I read show a lot of that Anti-Christ language is actually to do with Rome and really ANY dictator that sets itself up against God's people in any age - from Ancient Rome to modern China and North Korea. Not one all-controlling figure - but many. Not a prediction about a future timetable - but a message about general themes and situations for all God's people across all ages. Otherwise we may as well cut Revelation out of our bibles until the last 7 years or whatever.


Literal days in Genesis ..... creation sealed with the 7th day Sabbath .... also genealogy in the bible being meticulously kept track of. From Adam & Eve going forward around 6,000 literal years.
Yeah, nah. You didn't listen to the John Dickson podcasts or read his article. Nah. I'm not going to listen to someone who cannot recognise what type of literary genre Genesis is in the first place. You're reading a Shakespeare sonnet as an engineering manual. Stop it.
 
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eclipsenow

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The thing that really gets up my nose about all this?
Big Oil knew about it.
They heard the science.
They commissioned their own.
Their own scientists investigated.
This is the result - a memo from Shell from 1989!
34 years ago!
Way back then they concluded climate induced migration would run amok.

"Africans would push into Europe, Chinese into the Soviet Union, Latins into the United States, Indonesians into Australia. Boundaries would count for little - overwhelmed by the numbers. Conflicts would abound. Civilisation could prove a fragile thing."
Shell: Page 5, Confidential Group Planning PL89 SO1 - October 1989.
 
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eleos1954

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People remember media hype, not the state of the actual science. Have you read a summary of climate science from the 1970's? The science was that the majority of papers predicted warming. Indeed, the warming power of CO2 was confirmed by Eunice Foote in 1856. Only 10% of papers in the 1970's predicted cooling, and of them, lead authors soon retracted their work. It was all a misunderstanding about how much the sulfur in coal reflected the sunlight away. It's still valid science, and we might use "Solar Radiation Management" by flying dust up 20km to reflect a tiny amount of sunlight to cool the earth. But the math was complex - and the lead author soon admitted he got it wrong. But the media went CRAZY with it - and did not reflect what the majority of papers were saying. So NO - climate science did NOT as a majority predict cooling in the 1970s! That's just factually incorrect.
What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?

Please get back to us that you now know this - as it is a matter of conscience now for you not to repeat this myth again now that you know it is not true.

Indeed, so many predicted warming that movies like Soylent Green showed global warming. The Bell Telephone company reflected the state of the science catastrophic warming way back in 1958!




They do really know. The physics of how CO2 traps heat can be proved in any decent physics lab - not that I'm a physicist but I've asked them and seen videos demonstrating how they do it and read the history of climate science.

Also, it's ALWAYS been climate science. The media term used for pop culture shifted from global warming to "climate change" shifted under the George W Bush administration when the speech writer was told to look for a less threatening term, because Dubbya had too many mates in the oil industry and couldn't upset them. So the term "climate change" became fashionable. But global warming is still as good as any lay person description. But the scientific papers are written within the realm of climate sciences.
Get it? There's the scientific academic terminology, and the popular press.
See - even the popular term "Ice Age" is wrong. It's a glacial period, and we're now in an interglacial period.

Technically, from a true climate science point of view, we're in an Ice Age now. Why? Because there's some ice on the planet! Scientific nomenclatures can be quite different from popular ones - and it has nothing to do with whether or not the scientific enterprise is some kind of scam!


Yes the climate has changed in the DEEP past - and the climate scientists mostly know why. Continental drift, asteroid impacts, volcanism, Milankovitch "wobbles" in the earth's orbit and rotation and tilt, and since the dinosaur era - the sun getting 2% warmer. ALL play an impact!


Climate is global temperatures as measured across decades. Weather is what happens today and tomorrow. Climate impacts the weather much like weighting dice - but is not direct control. Or imagine it this way. Weather is a toddler making waves in the bath - the weather is the waves in the water. Climate change is someone left the tap on. Soon that bath will overflow and maybe drown the toddler!


Someone left the tap on. We keep mining and burning fossil fuels and adding CO2 to the atmosphere. We can measure what CO2 does in a lab. Even Mythbusters have done this! Good luck to any conspiracy theories trying to lie about what CO2 does. This next test can be replicated in any physics lab on the planet!
Do a little maths - and the CO2 is trapping 4 Hiroshima bombs worth of heat every second - but spread out across the entire planet. The basic physics of how CO2 traps heat is known.


Oh no! The world's governments are going to legislate we have to move to local renewable energy that our own nations produce - meaning we have more domestic control over our energy prices! Oh no! We won't be buying gas off the Russians and Middle East any more - people who don't like western democracies very much.
Oh no! The cheapest power we've ever produced in a MORE stable grid! Oh no! Filling up your electric car from solar panels on your roof = free motoring. How terrible!

I believe the bible and believe the Lord will return one day. But I'm Amil - and the theologians I read show a lot of that Anti-Christ language is actually to do with Rome and really ANY dictator that sets itself up against God's people in any age - from Ancient Rome to modern China and North Korea. Not one all-controlling figure - but many. Not a prediction about a future timetable - but a message about general themes and situations for all God's people across all ages. Otherwise we may as well cut Revelation out of our bibles until the last 7 years or whatever.



Yeah, nah. You didn't listen to the John Dickson podcasts or read his article. Nah. I'm not going to listen to someone who cannot recognise what type of literary genre Genesis is in the first place. You're reading a Shakespeare sonnet as an engineering manual. Stop it.

Well ... if you read genesis literally it uses the word YOM .... everywhere else in the bible it is considered one literal day.

Sure ... there have been many anti-christs .... but in the end times there is THE anti-christ, a false religious power that will deceive the all the world .... and that power is the papal system.

Solar power for the masses isn't ready yet .... it may be in the future.

Key Points. In 2020, U.S. greenhouse gas emissions totaled 5,981 million metric tons (13.2 trillion pounds) of carbon dioxide equivalents. This total represents a 7 percent decrease since 1990 and a 20 percent decrease since 2005

ok ... so we have made some progress ..... by how much have we prolonged the earth's "life" ? How many years? What is the calculation of the improvement?

How much has the temperature risen in the last 1,000 years?

Scientists make statements about "climate change" that they really don't know ....

Historical records show temperatures have typically fluctuated up or down by about 0.2°F per decade over the past 1,000 years.

Global Warming Could Hit Rates Unseen in 1,000 Years.

Yet actual recorded data only goes back to 1880 .. which is only 143 years ago. So they aren't looking at actual recorded "historical records" because it's only be officially recorded since 1880.

Greenhouse gas concentrations are at their highest levels in 2 million years

https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/what-is-climate-change

They have no idea what has been taking place over the last 1,000 years much less 2 million years.
 
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