The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[Hammster]

This IS the work of God, that ye believe...Jesus said. It is the heart of God and the bible that He loved all the world and died for us. His work was making the way...our work is accepting! His work was never to force decisions or arrange people to go to hell that is grossly unbiblical.

In fact, to claim that there is some sort of pre determined choice for salvation is to make the cross of Christ to NO effect! Why bother dying a horrible death if it was all arranged?

Because sin still needed atoned for.

 

[Hammster]

What ever you think is your business not mine. Given you do not know me or know anything about my life experience you are grossly overstepping your right to make any comment about my life.

If your theological world-view is so narrow that you cannot imagine anyone has the ability to choose whether they believe in God or not is your opinion not mine, so I am asking you politely to keep it to yourself.

I know it’s my opion. It’s informed. And it’s my thread. So, there’s that.

 

[Hammster]

Yes he was. Just as Judas chose to reject Him. Jesus reasoned with Paul, knowing his heart. There are times when God reveals Himself pretty clearly for some people.

His heart was to destroy Christianity.

And where do you see Christ reasoning with Saul?

 

[gordonhooker]

I know it’s my opion. It’s informed. And it’s my thread. So, there’s that.

Just because you started the thread that doesn’t mean you have the the right to be rude and goad people.

 

[Hammster]

Just because you started the thread that doesn’t mean you have the the right to be rude and goad people.

True. But it does give me the right to challenge statements. It is a debate, after all.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Yes he was. Just as Judas chose to reject Him. Jesus reasoned with Paul, knowing his heart. There are times when God reveals Himself pretty clearly for some people.

Please don't put words into God's mouth.

At that time Paul or Saul was out persecuting Christians he had nothing going on good in his heart.

M-Bob

 

[redleghunter]

Lazarus obeyed Jesus , and not just rising and walking out of the tomb.
Lazarus obeyed Jesus BEFORE Lazarus died.

You are missing the point. I used Lazarus as a stone cold example of death. I compared that to our spiritual death. And yes Lazarus obeyed and came forth because that is what people made alive in Christ do.

Don't over-analyze the example given. The example has to do with someone who at the moment is stone cold dead physically and that is compared to someone who is stone cold spiritually until made alive by God in Christ Jesus.

 

[redleghunter]

Since most people do not obey Jesus in time to be saved... as written in Revelation the whole world refuses to repent in these last days, they refuse to stop serving(worshiping) demons !

You are proving my example frankly. No one can obey, choose, or do anything spiritually dead (Ephesians 2) without being made alive first. That's the point.

With the example of Lazarus dead in the tomb for days and stinking, what possibly could he do to change his situation? Nothing.

 

[redleghunter]

You may want to explore Romans chapters 6 and 7. It explains the bondage of the human will and free it ain’t.

You misunderstand it.

Let's explore that:

To our human sensibilities and decades of post-modern victim class mentality, yes I see why people demand that everyone has a 'fair' and equal chance to choose Christ. Scripture however, does not support this.

In Romans 5, the Apostle Paul goes into minute detail to differentiate the one sin which condemns us all and 'our' sins. In the blue you will see the imputed sin of disobedience. In the green you will see our own sins which also condemn us based on our fallen state. {RLH note...Let's not forget all the good news as we explore what condemns us. The gospel is in these passages as well }

Romans 5: NASB

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NASB)​

I think if one gets original sin which Paul calls "through the one man's disobedience" right a lot of our doctrinal differences would be solved. This is not Augustine or Calvin. It's the Apostle Paul. The language is clear above.

This is why we are dead (spiritually) in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). No matter of human free will can change this but the Power of the Gospel for those who have ears to hear and eyes that see. We get this power from God as while even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace we have been saved) (Ephesians 2:5).

So what about our choices? The 'so called' free will of humans? We do have a human will which makes choices. However, the Libertarian free will you are promoting does not exist. Our human will is in bondage to either sin leading to death or in bondage to righteousness and Christ:

Romans 6: NASB

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




Does any theology have a full answer as to why God does what He does? No, and in the words of the Apostle Paul, he says:

Romans 11: NASB

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

And St Augustine with the above in mind opined:

But to the rest who were blinded, as is there plainly declared, it was done in recompense. All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth. But His ways are unsearchable. Therefore the mercy by which He freely delivers, and the truth by which He righteously judges, are equally unsearchable. (CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine))

 

[redleghunter]

It means the betrayal was something known about in advance.

Correct because (1) God is Sovereign and predestines. (2) People make choices according to the bondage of the will.

 

[dad]

Why must you distort scripture? It nowhere says we need God’s help. It’s very specific. God draws, Christ raises up.

Actually in John 15 it says without Him we can do nothing. So it seems we need His help for just about anything.

God draws, yes. He asks us to try and catch men like fish for His kingdom. This indicates that we can influence people. In other words influence their decisions. So we are to try and influence/persuade the to accept the gift of eternal life. So God does His bit, He draws. We do our bit, we try to clinch the deal. The drawing does not include jailing us and overriding our choice. A bit like saying there is a great band at the arena, quite a draw. But we need to chose to go see it. Yes Christ raises us up after we choose to accept Him. Just as He casts down if men reject Him. It all depends on what we choose.

 

[dad]

Because sin still needed atoned for.

If the sheep are pre determined to go to heaven and the wolves pre determined to go to hell, no atonement is needed save for the sheep. He died for all.

 

[gordonhooker]

True. But it does give me the right to challenge statements. It is a debate, after all.

You went past challenging you started getting personal.

 

[Hammster]

Actually in John 15 it says without Him we can do nothing. So it seems we need His help for just about anything.

God draws, yes. He asks us to try and catch men like fish for His kingdom. This indicates that we can influence people. In other words influence their decisions. So we are to try and influence/persuade the to accept the gift of eternal life. So God does His bit, He draws. We do our bit, we try to clinch the deal. The drawing does not include jailing us and overriding our choice. A bit like saying there is a great band at the arena, quite a draw. But we need to chose to go see it. Yes Christ raises us up after we choose to accept Him. Just as He casts down if men reject Him. It all depends on what we choose.

Draw doesn’t mean what to think it means. It means to drag, like undheathing a sword. You’re using it like God is wooing us. A God who can change a heart doesn’t need to woo.

 

[Hammster]

If the sheep are pre determined to go to heaven and the wolves pre determined to go to hell, no atonement is needed save for the sheep. He died for all.

Yeah, because SIN still needs ATONING for. Predestination doesn’t change that.

 

[Hammster]

You went past challenging you started getting personal.

I had no choice since you used a personal anecdote.

 

[dad]

His heart was to destroy Christianity.

And where do you see Christ reasoning with Saul?

I see where Jesus made it crystal clear that the One Saul was fighting was Him...God. I seem to recall something also about Paul having learned a lot of things directly from Jesus in the early days of his conversion? I see Jesus arranged for Cornelius to help Paul also. This all seems like reasoning to me. That is how He is.

Isa 1: 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


So God loves to reason with us, and His Own mouth here shows us that our will is the linchpin that determines what happens.

 

[dad]

Yeah, because SIN still needs ATONING for. Predestination doesn’t change that.

If they are destined and created for torment and hell, why die to atone for them?

 

[dad]

Correct because (1) God is Sovereign and predestines. (2) People make choices according to the bondage of the will.

No. Judas betrayed because he chose to do so. No one forced him either way any more than anyone else.

 

[redleghunter]

No. Judas betrayed because he chose to do so. No one forced him either way any more than anyone else.

You missed it again. Yes Judas did what an evil heart would do in bondage to sin. We have this:

Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70)

Whoops.

“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. (John 17:11-12)

Whoops again.

So yes Judas chose his course in life. He did so as Christ says as son of perdition. The OT Scriptures even prophesy this.

I guess the question to you is, Judas even before being conceived was predestined to betray Christ.

I mean how 'fair' is that?