The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Did Judas have a fighting chance?

What does that mean actually ?
Does ANYONE have a fighting chance ?
Do you know anyone who has a fighting chance ? (Scripturally , that is)

 

[redleghunter]

Nothing to do with that. It has to do with seeing who Jesus was and how He was when here. Example: the woman at the well. Jesus went out of His way to give the woman a fair chance (and her town as a result also).

If she was pre destined to hell or heaven, why bother?

The passages I quoted had nothing to do with predestination but original sin and the bondage of the human will.

Ha. So He did die for all of us, I notice here a verse about the Rapture also...how we will not go through the wrath

This does not address the subject.

Ah there it is again, talking about how enemies of God can be reconciled because of what He did!

This again has nothing to do with the subject

Yes we chose to do that.

It actually has God doing and we receiving. But again has nothing to do with the subject.

Yes we chose to do that.

Again, God is doing and we are accepting, but once again you failed to address the subject.

Even the old testament believers were saved by Christ...that He would one day come.

Which is not the subject again.

Is it your strategy to answer off topic or subject when presented with an expository discussion?

 

[redleghunter]

Nothing to do with that. It has to do with seeing who Jesus was and how He was when here. Example: the woman at the well. Jesus went out of His way to give the woman a fair chance (and her town as a result also).

If she was pre destined to hell or heaven, why bother?

The passages I quoted had nothing to do with predestination but original sin and the bondage of the human will.

Ha. So He did die for all of us, I notice here a verse about the Rapture also...how we will not go through the wrath

This does not address the subject.

Ah there it is again, talking about how enemies of God can be reconciled because of what He did!

This again has nothing to do with the subject

Yes we chose to do that.

It actually has God doing and we receiving. But again has nothing to do with the subject.

Yes we chose to do that.

Again, God is doing and we are accepting, but once again you failed to address the subject.

Even the old testament believers were saved by Christ...that He would one day come.

Which is not the subject again.

Is it your strategy to answer off topic or subject when presented with an expository discussion? ​

 

[dad]

Sure. But they won’t chose to do so because they hate God. They are slaves to their nature.

No more than the rest of us.

 

[dad]

The passages I quoted had nothing to do with predestination but original sin and the bondage of the human will.
​

He sets us free. Our will is not so in bondage that we can't choose to get saved.
..

It actually has God doing and we receiving. ..

The way we receive is free will choice.

.

Is it your strategy to answer off topic or subject when presented with an expository discussion?

The implications and ramifications of having no real ability to choose or reject His salvation are many.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No more than the rest of us.

oops.

The Redeemed Elect Ekklesia abiding IN JESUS are bond-slaves of RIGHTEOUSNESS, not of sin nor of the flesh nor of the world nor of the devil.

The rest of the world is still , lost. Slaves of the prince of the power of the air.

 

[dad]

What does that mean actually ?
Does ANYONE have a fighting chance ?
Do you know anyone who has a fighting chance ? (Scripturally , that is)

I think what was meant was 'did Jusdas have a chance to chose salvation, or was he created to be doomed to hell'

 

[dad]

oops.

The Redeemed Elect Ekklesia abiding IN JESUS are bond-slaves of RIGHTEOUSNESS, not of sin nor of the flesh nor of the world nor of the devil.

AFTER they CHOOSE to be redeemed only.

The rest of the world is still , lost. Slaves of the prince of the power of the air.

They too could come to the light and choose life.

 

[dad]

That’s a long way to go to not answer the question.

You asked how does He know. I pointed out He knows in advance but that does not mean He made us robots with no choice in advance.

 

[Hammster]

No more than the rest of us.

Exactly. That’s what Ephesians 2 says.

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

Then there’s the next part. It’s the important part.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- - Ephesians 2:4-5

We were regenerated by God (born again). We were dead, and He made us alive.

 

[Hammster]

You asked how does He know. I pointed out He knows in advance but that does not mean He made us robots with no choice in advance.

You are avoiding the question. (And throwing in a straw man with the robots thing. Read the OP.).

How does He know in advance? By ordaining, or learning?

 

[redleghunter]

Right, one of them chose to reject Him, and yield to the devil.


Don't blame Jesus! He gave him every chance.

That's not what Jesus said. He called Judas a devil before he even conceived of the notion of betraying Jesus.

In every crowd there may be a person that just will not make the right choices. God knew man was wicked, and what would happen. That does not mean He is evil, or that He made Judas reject Him.

So God waited for Judas to make a decision before making sure the prophets wrote it down centuries before? Is this some sort of String Theory?

You seem to have no real grasp at what is meant by predestination. Knowing about choices man will make is NOT the same as making man make those choices!

I think you are confused on the various words and how they are used in Scriptures. First, God is Sovereign and predestines according to His will and purpose.

Secondly, Predestine and Foreknowledge are not the same as can be seen in Acts 2:22-23 as they are used in the same sentence. It seems you are operating with: that God is omniscient (and He is) and as such He knows and sees all things outside and inside of time, space and matter. And as such both Jesus and the Father knew Judas would betray Jesus of his own bonded will as an unregenerate sinner. If so that is partially accurate but what have you left out? God's will and purpose. I'll break it down as we are dealing with two separate words here:

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death (Acts 2:23)

Predetermined: Lexicon :: Strong's G3724 - horizō

The KJV translates Strong's G3724 in the following manner: determine (2x), ordain (2x), declare (1x), limit (1x), determine (1x).

to define

1. to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)
   
   
2. to determine, appoint
   1. that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree
      
      
   2. to ordain, determine, appoint

ὁρίζω horízō, hor-id'-zo; from G3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:—declare, determine, limit, ordain.

ὁρίζω; 1 aorist ὡρισα; passive, perfect participle ὡρισμένος; 1 aorist participle ὁρισθεις; (from ὅρος a boundary, limit); from (Aeschylus and) Herodotus down; to define; i. e.
1. to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing): Herodotus, Xenophon, Thucydides, others; Numbers 34:6; Joshua 13:27.
2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26 (numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined, according to appointment, decree, Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V. declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29 (Sophocles from 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)

Ok so here we have a clear definition that God ordained, predetermined, appointed to have Jesus (this Man) turned over to evil men nailing Him to the Cross. This is not, according to you, knowing about the choices of men. This is God's Sovereign will and purpose which will be done.

Foreknowledge: Lexicon :: Strong's G4268 - prognosis

1. 
   
   
   • foreknowledge
   • forethought, pre-arrangement

πρόγνωσις prógnōsis, prog'-no-sis; from G4267; forethought:—foreknowledge.

STRONGS NT 4268: πρόγνωσις
πρόγνωσις, προγνωσεως, ἡ (προγινώσκω);
1. foreknowledge: Judith 9:6 Judith 11:19 (Plutarch, Lucian, Herodian).
2. forethought, prearrangement (see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23 (but cf. προγινώσκω,

Foreknowledge is pretty straight forward but prognosis is only used twice in the Bible and in Acts 2:23 it is used in the same statement with horizo. Let's go to the root to see if there is some information for us:

STRONGS NT 4267: προγινώσκω
προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29 (τῶν εἰς αὐτόν (Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho, c. 42; προγινώσκει (ὁ Θεός) τινας ἐκ μετανοίας σωθήσεσθαι μέλλοντας, id. Apology 1:28); ὅν προέγνω, whose character he clearly saw beforehand, Rom. 11: (1 Lachmann in brackets), Romans 11:2 (against those who in the preceding passages from Rom. explain προγινώσκειν as meaning to predestinate, cf. Meyer, Philippi, Van Hengel); προεγνωσμένου, namely, ὑπό τοῦ Θεοῦ (foreknown by God, although not yet 'made manifest' to men), 1 Peter 1:20. (Wis. 6:14 Wis. 8:8 Wis. 18:6; Euripides, Xenophon, Plato, Herodian, Philostr., others.)


Dad, do you see the distinction here in one verse (Acts 2:23)? What is communicated with Predestine is that (1) God's plan will happen the way he foreordained to happen. This is His Will and Purpose will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. (2) Since God is omniscient He sees all things beforehand and what people will do based on the bondage of their human will good or bad.

When the Apostle Peter says "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death", he is telling us this was God's plan from before the foundations of the Earth, and He also knew every detail on how it would come into being.

So in fact Judas was predetermined according to God's plan to betray Jesus. That is why we have prophecy of one who would betray Jesus. Now because God's Sovereign plan was predetermined, and the fact that God is omniscient and sees and knows all things, He also had Foreknowledge of all the bonded will choices of the evil men who laid hands on Christ and nailed Him to the Cross.

To sum up the above? God had a determined plan that would happen (Predestined, determined) and it happened exactly the way God planned it (Foreknowledge).

Compatibilism best explains this:

Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a [libertarian] free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism, is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature, for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decree.)​

 

[redleghunter]

He sets us free.

Yes.

Our will is not so in bondage that we can't choose to get saved.

It is in bondage to sin leading to death. Only God can make us alive in Christ Jesus.

Why is it such a stumbling block for some to accept that Grace means just that...unmerited and from God? That He quickens we who are spiritually dead so we can respond freely to Him with a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone. And that a heart of flesh will come to Him as a damned destitute sinner in godly sorrow repenting and calling on the Name of Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

What does that mean actually ?
Does ANYONE have a fighting chance ?
Do you know anyone who has a fighting chance ? (Scripturally , that is)

That's why I asked. Nothing escapes the Great I AM.

 

[dad]

Exactly. That’s what Ephesians 2 says.

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

Then there’s the next part. It’s the important part.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- - Ephesians 2:4-5

We were regenerated by God (born again). We were dead, and He made us alive.

Yes, after we came to Him, believed in Him, and asked.

Every man can do that if the choose to.

 

[dad]

You are avoiding the question. (And throwing in a straw man with the robots thing. Read the OP.).

How does He know in advance? By ordaining, or learning?

Who cares how God knows? He knows. Not up to you to guess how.

 

[dad]

That's not what Jesus said. He called Judas a devil before he even conceived of the notion of betraying Jesus.

Says WHO!!!!? Judas probably already decided in his heart. Jesus knew the hearts of course.

So God waited for Judas to make a decision before making sure the prophets wrote it down centuries before? Is this some sort of String Theory?

He knew long before the prophets were even born. He knew He needed to die for men. He knew the hearts. He knew what men were capable of if the rejected Him. He knew about the spiritual forces in the world. None of this means that He made Judas chose what he chose!

I think you are confused on the various words and how they are used in Scriptures. First, God is Sovereign and predestines according to His will and purpose.

The verse that talks about predestination refers to, if I recall, the group of believers...right? Not to an individual.

Secondly, Predestine and Foreknowledge are not the same as can be seen in Acts 2:22-23 as they are used in the same sentence. It seems you are operating with: that God is omniscient (and He is) and as such He knows and sees all things outside and inside of time, space and matter. And as such both Jesus and the Father knew Judas would betray Jesus of his own bonded will as an unregenerate sinner. If so that is partially accurate but what have you left out?

We shall see.

God's will and purpose. I'll break it down as we are dealing with two separate words here:

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death (Acts 2:23)

Yes the plan of salvation involved dying for us. This was known and decided.

Predetermined: Lexicon :: Strong's G3724 - horizō

The KJV translates Strong's G3724 in the following manner: determine (2x), ordain (2x), declare (1x), limit (1x), determine (1x).

Yes, that God would come down and pay the price was determined.

Ok so here we have a clear definition that God ordained, predetermined, appointed to have Jesus (this Man) turned over to evil men nailing Him to the Cross. This is not, according to you, knowing about the choices of men. This is God's Sovereign will and purpose which will be done.

No. He knew men were evil, and what would happen. He did not make them do it.

Foreknowledge: Lexicon :: Strong's G4268 - prognosis

1. 
   
   
   • foreknowledge
   • forethought, pre-arrangement

No doubt He organised the whole thing. That does not involve stopping man from making choices.

Foreknowledge is pretty straight forward but prognosis is only used twice in the Bible and in Acts 2:23 it is used in the same statement with horizo. Let's go to the root to see if there is some information for us:

STRONGS NT 4267: προγινώσκω
προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son,

That was the plan, those who accept Him were to be led and taught and made more like Jesus. That does not mean that the ones who were to be made that way did not choose to accept salvation.

Dad, do you see the distinction here in one verse (Acts 2:23)? What is communicated with Predestine is that (1) God's plan will happen the way he foreordained to happen. This is His Will and Purpose will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. (2) Since God is omniscient He sees all things beforehand and what people will do based on the bondage of their human will good or bad.

His plan includes and involves men choosing.

When the Apostle Peter says "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death", he is telling us this was God's plan from before the foundations of the Earth, and He also knew every detail on how it would come into being.

He knew Peter would deny Him thrice, does that mean Jesus forced Peter to deny Him!?

He knew Lazarus was dead, does that mean He killed him? He knew most of the apostles would be martyred, does that mean He made the wicked men killing them do it?! No.

So in fact Judas was predetermined according to God's plan to betray Jesus.

That just means God knew his choice in advance.

That is why we have prophecy of one who would betray Jesus.

God knew in advance. We do not have prophesy because God does it all. God prophesied about many dying in the Tribulation as martyrs, that does not mean He kills them or makes rabid men kill them!

Now because God's Sovereign plan was predetermined, and the fact that God is omniscient and sees and knows all things, He also had Foreknowledge of all the bonded will choices of the evil men who laid hands on Christ and nailed Him to the Cross.

I could go with that one, He knew what they would do.

Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a [libertarian] free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism, is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature, for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decree.)​

Nah, some guy overthinks it who really doesn't know what he is talking about. Choices are choices. Real choices. I don't need people guessing as to how and why God does things. Once we know Him, we have a pretty good idea...love!

 

[dad]

Yes.


It is in bondage to sin leading to death. Only God can make us alive in Christ Jesus.

The way He does that is spelled out. We simply need to believe and ask. He does not make anyone alive unless they do.

Why is it such a stumbling block for some to accept that Grace means just that...unmerited and from God?

Doing what He commanded, and asking and choosing Him is not merit. That is a sinned saved by grace!

That He quickens we who are spiritually dead so we can respond freely to Him with a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone.

When we come to Jesus and ask, He does that. When men reject and refuse He doesn't. In either case it is our choice that determines our fate, according to His plan and will.

 

[liberty of conscience]

As what usually happens in these threads, once Calvinism is mentioned, or someone who is Reformed posts something that seems Reformed, the arguments against Reformed Theology come out, and are usually emotionally driven straw man arguments.

This gets us nowhere because the Calvinists aren't really given the opportunity to defend what we believe, but have to spend time correcting the incorrect argument.

So here's the challenge. Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge to to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.

Here are your links.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist )

Canons of Dordt

Heidelberg Catechism

Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Christian Classics Books, Bible Study

So I quoted from your link, on the false doctrine it advocated in regards immortal soul/spirit theology which is central to Calvinism, and in the link you provided the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, I cited directly from, and refuted it.

Then what happens?

You do not respond to the material, but (babylonian) whine about it, and then a day later my post suddenly goes missing.

Shows you cannot defend the point without force.

So here's the deal.

Who is the key figure in Calvinism?

Jean Calvin.

What did John Calvin write on the issue of the state of the dead?

Psychopannychia

Which was Jean Calvins' treatise against soul sleep.

He must have been asleep at the wheel when he wrote it.

Your link posts the same abused and wrested scripture, which I directly cited from, and refuted.

You were unable to refute the point.

My post is no longer available.

At least I can defend what I believe from scripture, logically and coherently and without use of force.

You have demonstrated what you are.

Scripture identifies such action also.

There's even a colour that goes with it.

Next time you just want a place to pontificate, don't bother asking for challengers to refute your imaginary religion if you weren't actually serious.

Last time I'll post in this waste of time.

 

[redleghunter]

Says WHO!!!!? Judas probably already decided in his heart. Jesus knew the hearts of course.


He knew long before the prophets were even born. He knew He needed to die for men. He knew the hearts. He knew what men were capable of if the rejected Him. He knew about the spiritual forces in the world. None of this means that He made Judas chose what he chose!

The verse that talks about predestination refers to, if I recall, the group of believers...right? Not to an individual.


We shall see.
Yes the plan of salvation involved dying for us. This was known and decided.
Yes, that God would come down and pay the price was determined.

No. He knew men were evil, and what would happen. He did not make them do it.
No doubt He organised the whole thing. That does not involve stopping man from making choices.


That was the plan, those who accept Him were to be led and taught and made more like Jesus. That does not mean that the ones who were to be made that way did not choose to accept salvation.

His plan includes and involves men choosing.
He knew Peter would deny Him thrice, does that mean Jesus forced Peter to deny Him!?

He knew Lazarus was dead, does that mean He killed him? He knew most of the apostles would be martyred, does that mean He made the wicked men killing them do it?! No.
That just means God knew his choice in advance.
God knew in advance. We do not have prophesy because God does it all. God prophesied about many dying in the Tribulation as martyrs, that does not mean He kills them or makes rabid men kill them!

I could go with that one, He knew what they would do.

Nah, some guy overthinks it who really doesn't know what he is talking about. Choices are choices. Real choices. I don't need people guessing as to how and why God does things. Once we know Him, we have a pretty good idea...love!

You completely ignored the exegesis presented. Let me know when you want to seriously engage me.