The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Many reasons. God works on us and our lives, trying to get through and prepare the way. Maybe a guy had a girlfriend that either provided a good sample of God's love, or maybe dumped him, so he wanted tot try and find real love...etc etc.

The issue is not whether God tries and tries and calls and makes a way ..maybe many times..the issue is whether He leaves the choice up to us, of forces us.

I think no, not quite - it is neither of those. (according to what I read in Scripture)
By and in Grace as He Chooses - He Does Whatever He Pleases,
and as written : "that not of ourselves, it is His Gift" Ephesians 2 ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nice chapter, what about it? I see one place it talks about how He made us sit in heavenly places...you think you do that now?

Absolutely ! YES! YES! in Christ JEsus AS WRITTEN ! HALLELUYAH !

 

[dad]

An expository from Scriptures is order to support your claims.

Also according to the OP Scriptures to support the straw men you just raised up.

Really?? When you see this scriptures don't come to mind!?

". He wills that all men be saved...and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He went to great great lengths to make it possible to make the right choice."

He often tried to gather Jerusalem as a hen gathers chicks, but it refused and chose to reject Him..over and over. That is great lengths. Never heard the verse where He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked??

--Eze 33:11

He wills all to be saved?
8 Bible verses about God Wants To Save All

 

[dad]

Absolutely ! YES! YES! in Christ JEsus AS WRITTEN ! HALLELUYAH !

I see. I thought that we would leave earth and go to be with Him in heavenly places one day in the future, and not that we had already ultimately fulfilled this verse.

 

[dad]

I think no, not quite - it is neither of those. (according to what I read in Scripture)
By and in Grace as He Chooses - He Does Whatever He Pleases,
and as written : "that not of ourselves, it is His Gift" Ephesians 2 ?

It pleases Him for us to choose!

 

[dad]

So it's all up to us?

All I need to do is make the right choice.

The Bible teaches me that not one is good and no one can come unless the father draws them.

I guess the question is does he draw all?
According to the Book of Romans I just don't think so.

He tries!! He even died in the effort!

Problem with man he thinks that would not be fair. And God may say to him, who are you little man?

Easy to be puffed up in ourselves if we think we did it all. I sure am smarter than my neighbor for he never chose God.

M-Bob

When God says things like 'choose ye this day whom ye shall serve..' it is anything BUT puffed up to chose!! When He says 'therefore chose life..' it is not evil to do so! When He says we are to ask to receive, asking is a good thing! Etc.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It pleases Him for us to choose!

Yes, and

Ezekiel 33:10-12 International Standard Version (ISV)

God Hates the Death of the Wicked
10 “‘Now, Son of Man, tell this to the house of Israel:

‘You keep saying, “Our crimes and sins burden us so much that we’re rotting away, so how can we keep on living?”’


11 “Tell them, ‘As certainly as I’m alive and living,’ declares the Lord God, ‘I receive no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Instead, my pleasure is that the wicked repent from their behaviora]">[a] and live. Turn back! Turn back, all of you, from your wicked behavior! Why do you have to die, you house of Israel?’”


Human Effort is Useless in Sustaining Righteousness
12 “And now, Son of Man, say this to your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous won’t save them when they keep on committing crimes against me, the wickedness of the wicked won’t keep them from remaining awayb]">[b] when they’re turning from their wickedness, and no righteous person will keep on living by their righteousness when they sin.’

 

[Hammster]

Of course He calls us and draws us. But we must heed. He doesn't lasso us into a coral. Some refuse to heed. Some heed.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

All who are drawn are raised up.

 

[Hammster]

Many reasons. God works on us and our lives, trying to get through and prepare the way. Maybe a guy had a girlfriend that either provided a good sample of God's love, or maybe dumped him, so he wanted tot try and find real love...etc etc.

The issue is not whether God tries and tries and calls and makes a way ..maybe many times..the issue is whether He leaves the choice up to us, of forces us.

Can you see how your view excludes the work of God. That’s why it’s grossly unbiblical.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

All who are drawn are raised up.

The second statement is not provable by the first statement, and not required.

 

[Hammster]

The second statement is not provable by the first statement, and not required.

???

 

[redleghunter]

Spiritually dead does not mean cold and physically dead.

Ephesians 2 is speaking of us being spiritually dead not physically dead. Really dad this is your answer?

Of course He calls us and draws us. But we must heed. He doesn't lasso us into a coral. Some refuse to heed. Some heed.

The dead don't heed. Get some Scripture on Cowboy!

Nice chapter, what about it? I see one place it talks about how He made us sit in heavenly places...you think you do that now?

Hi Dad. I know you debate atheists a lot and the above type of answer would be suitable for them...but we are fellow Christians. You can quote Scripture at any time and I won't be offended.

 

[gordonhooker]

I understand. It makes no sense and can’t be defended.

Sorry what makes no sense and what can't be defended?

 

[redleghunter]

". He wills that all men be saved (part of 1 Timothy 2:4...and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (part of Ezekiel 18:13). He went to great great lengths to make it possible to make the right choice." (no such verse I could find)

Congratulations on creating your own verse like Mods Pizza. Not only is the above not in context, it isn't even a verse.

--Eze 33:11

He wills all to be saved?

Will all be saved? I don't think you are a Universalist?

 

[Hammster]

Sorry what makes no sense and what can't be defended?

That you think you can just will yourself to change what you believe.

 

[dad]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

All who are drawn are raised up.

True, it takes God's help, and we all have that as far as choosing. No excuse not the choose Him. However not all men yield to His drawing in.

 

[dad]

Can you see how your view excludes the work of God. That’s why it’s grossly unbiblical.

This IS the work of God, that ye believe...Jesus said. It is the heart of God and the bible that He loved all the world and died for us. His work was making the way...our work is accepting! His work was never to force decisions or arrange people to go to hell that is grossly unbiblical.

In fact, to claim that there is some sort of pre determined choice for salvation is to make the cross of Christ to NO effect! Why bother dying a horrible death if it was all arranged?

 

[gordonhooker]

That you think you can just will yourself to change what you believe.

What ever you think is your business not mine. Given you do not know me or know anything about my life experience you are grossly overstepping your right to make any comment about my life.

If your theological world-view is so narrow that you cannot imagine anyone has the ability to choose whether they believe in God or not is your opinion not mine, so I am asking you politely to keep it to yourself.

 

[dad]

Ephesians 2 is speaking of us being spiritually dead not physically dead. Really dad this is your answer?





The dead don't heed. Get some Scripture on Cowboy!

Actually the time is coming and now is when the dead shall hear and live!!

New American Standard 1977
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live.


Top that!

Hi Dad. I know you debate atheists a lot and the above type of answer would be suitable for them...but we are fellow Christians. You can quote Scripture at any time and I won't be offended.

Done.

 

[dad]

Congratulations on creating your own verse like Mods Pizza. Not only is the above not in context, it isn't even a verse.


Will all be saved? I don't think you are a Universalist?

Revelation they say contains references or alludes to most prophesy books in the OT. I didn't know every allusion to Scripture had to be spelled out for Christian. The context was fine.

Obviously all men will not get saved, but He offers it to all and made it available. He would love all men to choose life.