The Nicene Creed - line by line

[Tzaousios]

When I quote numerous scripture verses that support my position and NO ONE has quoted a single verse to the contrary position, it is not hypocrisy.

Are you backing off from your charge of "using man's logic," then?

Also, do you mean to suggest that you think Scripture can contradict itself? If not, it would be rather nonsensical to demand that people post their prooftexts to the contrary of your prooftexts.

 

[Willie T]

Are you backing off from your charge of "using man's logic," then?

Also, do you mean to suggest that you think Scripture can contradict itself? If not, it would be rather nonsensical to demand that people post their prooftexts to the contrary of your prooftexts.

Very logical. All doing that would possibly "prove" is that maybe BOTH parties could be wrong. After all, the only thing either person is going by is interpretation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I did want to check myself.

I find that the Ancient Churches teach One God in 3 persons, co-equal and co-eternal.

The Reformers teach the same.

The Radical Reformers did not change this.

So let me ask this - where does the idea that the Persons of the Trinity are NOT equal come from? Who else teaches or believes this? Whose doctrine is it?

So far I don't find it having been disputed among Christians (unless you count those who are not Trinitarian).

 

[prodromos]

When that is said (God cannot tolerate sin in his presence) it refers to his presence in Heaven where souls really come to experience God in a way that doesn't happen on Earth.

It is no less a mistaken conclusion. God doesn't have a problem with sin in His presence, it is sinful man who has a problem being in God's.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.

Don't you even realize that you are saying a supposed "fallen angel" is able to create something that God has to hide Himself from? I think you are making evil and sin a LOT more than just man's downfall. You are making him, in your mind, a god capable of creating a situation our God has to run from.

Which, then, would have the greater power?

God the Father does not run from us. He gave us the Son to be our MEDIATOR. Think about what a mediator does and you may start to appreciate the Father's glory.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

God also sent the Son to be our savior.

Think about where this "fallen angel" is now. He has been cast out of heaven where the Father dwells. Satan dwells here on earth. God the Father will not dwell with him.

God creates Hell where he will never go. Do you take that as some kind of weakness on his part? You might as well ask can God make something so big he can't lift it?

And now scripture that says the Lord[Father] can not stay in the presence of people that disobey him.

Ex 33:3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.

Scripture instead says it is the Angel of the Lord[the Son of God] that goes with the nation of Israel.

Ex 23:20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.

1 cor 10: 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.


This is my problem with the modern Christian church that is so Jesus focused. We do not often dwell on how the Son has been the church's shepherd since creation. We do not acknowledge how great the glory of the Father is.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God[the creator]; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s[the creator] invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[prodromos]

I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.

You must have missed reading the Gospels. God dwelt on earth among us for roughly 33 years.

(or are you of the heretical view that Jesus Christ is not God?)

 

[Willie T]

I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.



God the Father does not run from us. He gave us the Son to be our MEDIATOR. Think about what a mediator does and you may start to appreciate the Father's glory.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

God also sent the Son to be our savior.

Think about where this "fallen angel" is now. He has been cast out of heaven where the Father dwells. Satan dwells here on earth. God the Father will not dwell with him.

God creates Hell where he will never go. Do you take that as some kind of weakness on his part? You might as well ask can God make something so big he can't lift it?

And now scripture that says the Lord[Father] can not stay in the presence of people that disobey him.

Ex 33:3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.

Scripture instead says it is the Angel of the Lord[the Son of God] that goes with the nation of Israel.

Ex 23:20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.

1 cor 10: 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.


This is my problem with the modern Christian church that is so Jesus focused. We do not often dwell on how the Son has been the church's shepherd since creation. We do not acknowledge how great the glory of the Father is.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God[the creator]; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s[the creator] invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Sorry, I just do not see the "good cop, bad cop" theme anywhere in the Bible.

 

[seeingeyes]

It's just another one of those things that leads to a certain conclusion, and if we don't believe the conclusion about God, then we have to question if the premises are true.

AMEN.

Sister, you are truly my sister, though I think you must be the big sister, since you don't drive people nearly as crazy as I do.

 

[paul becke]

The Messianic Jewish people insist that the word, God, should be spelt G-d, out of reverence for his holy name.

The concept of the Holy Trinity is presumably the most profound of all the paradoxes/ mysteries of our faith, since, for example, the love we have for mother, father, sister or brother does not 'create' another person in our human families.

And yet, the absolutely unfathomable mystery of God's nature is evidently optimally conveyed to our very limited understanding in the three Persons in one nature of the one true God, as delineated by Jesus on various occasions.

So, in a sense, this mystery of the Most Holy Trinity, could, it seems to me, be viewed as being of such a nature as to inspire in us that same sense of reverence for God, in the face of the incompleteness of our understanding of Him, of our very finitude and God's 'otherness'. If all that doesn't sound too high falutin'.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ah, the problem of using man's logic.



I said this in response to a post by Kylissa affirming a belief where she even said she didn't have scripture to back it up.

Show me where I have made conclusions without scripture references and you can question "my logic".

I can question logic in any post regardless its lack of scripture or the presence of scripture in it.

So once more what logic did you use?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't mind if the current discussion continues, though I sense we're coming up against some walls.

I think we can proceed with the Creed as well.

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the only-begotten Son of God,
begotten of the Father before all ages;


.

 

[Chesterton]

The concept of the Holy Trinity is presumably the most profound of all the paradoxes/ mysteries of our faith, since, for example, the love we have for mother, father, sister or brother does not 'create' another person in our human families.

It should be noted that the love of man and wife does make them "one flesh", and other beings are created out of that union.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Seek and you will find.

In Old Testament times, the tabernacle in which the Jewish people worshiped and prayed consisted of three main parts: the outer court; the inner court, or holy place; and the most holy place, or Holy of Holies (yes, i copy pasted this)

1 Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Interesting, Jesus teaches us to pray for three things.

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.

13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.

For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.

You must have missed reading the Gospels. God dwelt on earth among us for roughly 33 years.

(or are you of the heretical view that Jesus Christ is not God?)

You must have missed reading the last 286 post that are supposed to be on the subject of the Nicene Creed, a defense of the Trinity. Your comment is disingenuous. There has not been one post claiming that Jesus is not God.

There has been a discussion here on characteristics of each person of God. My comment pertains to God the Father, if you can't figure that out.

 

[Albion]

I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.

If so, you have to deny that Jesus was God. That was prodromos' point to you.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Sorry, I just do not see the "good cop, bad cop" theme anywhere in the Bible.

Read more of the Old Testament. Understand how God lives with both righteous judgement and abounding mercy/love. This is expressed in simple terms like the Law and the Gospel although the OT is not all Law and the NT is not all Gospel.

These two qualities are shown in Jesus' life.

For God so loved us that he sent his Son to die for us, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Justice, the debt of sin had to be paid by Jesus' death.
Mercy/love, we that believe shall have eternal life.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

If so, you have to deny that Jesus was God. That was prodromos' point to you.

I don't think you understand the concept of the Trinity, three persons, one God.

They each do have different qualities/characteristics.

 

[Tzaousios]

AnticipateHisComing, please see my reply to you in post #282. Thanks.

 

[Albion]

I don't think you understand the concept of the Trinity, three persons, one God.

They each do have different qualities/characteristics.

Sure they have different characteristics, but it's not the case that any of the three are not God. There IS only one God, and Jesus was God in the flesh. If you do not know that, you are kidding yourself about being orthodox, a Trinitarian, or of adhering to the Nicene Creed.