The Nicene Creed - line by line

[AnticipateHisComing]

Trying to catch up in some other threads but after a moment it occurred to me - I don't see how we can make a greater/lesser within the Trinity and still affirm that all three Persons are God.

You would have "greater and lesser gods" in that case - and that is NOT what we believe.

How can one BE God (Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit) and yet somehow be less?

I don't have Scripture for you yet, but I am increasingly uncomfortable with this line of thinking ...

Ah, the problem of using man's logic. Scripture has a very clear example of one person of God, the Son becoming "a lesser god" according to your logic.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Just try and use your logic to explain how an equal power, same as the Father person was made lower, as man and then died. Did Jesus separate from his glorified entity, co-equal with the Father and Holy Spirit when he was born? Did the Son still have his full power in heaven while Jesus was on earth?

Remember what Paul said to the Greek thinkers of his day.
1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

The trinity is hard enough to comprehend without adding more logical arguments to define its existence.

 

[Albion]

Ah, the problem of using man's logic. Scripture has a very clear example of one person of God, the Son becoming "a lesser god" according to your logic.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Just try and use your logic to explain how an equal power, same as the Father person was made lower, as man and then died.

That's the point, and I'm surprised it escaped you.

Had the verse said "the second person of the Trinity was made lower than the angels" we'd really have something wouldn't we? That would be a blockbuster. But although you are reading it that way, what it actually says is "Jesus was made lower...."

The reference is to Jesus of Nazareth, the man. God assumed a human nature, you know, and was thereafter both completely God and completely Man. As one of his own creatures, then, it is entirely reasonable to say that he was made lower than the angels for a little while.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

This runs parallel to the claims that God couldn't be around sin, and it made Him so angry He had to vent that wrath on His son.

If we think.

Are we actually giving sin, and its originator so much power that God was, basically, "controlled" by Satan and his sin? This would have to concede that Satan would ALSO have to be an equal to God whom he is influencing, (and even MORE powerful than God since his will made God feel certain ways, and forced Him to have to react to sin.)

No, we don't want to see this obvious conclusion, and we will run, screaming, head-long into a brick wall of illogic denial before we will look at what we are actually saying with our beliefs.

So many don't comprehend that Jesus' death and our atonement has been God's plan since creation.

Acts 2:23 This man [Jesus] was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

1 Peter 1:20 He[Jesus] was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.


I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.

 

[Willie T]

Maybe not exactly parallel, but on the other hand, if I understand Willie correctly, what he DOES seem to be saying is that we follow statements to a reasoned conclusion, to see if what we are saying may be true or not. (Or at least that we should.)

I understand it because there was something similar - not this exact situation - but rather the idea that God is forced to require his anger to be satisfied by punishing someone - Christ - before He is contractually able to forgive sins. That's one I thought about for a while, and I decided that it makes the "requirement" bigger than God and limits His ability to forgive on the basis of His mercy alone, if He so chooses.

It's just another one of those things that leads to a certain conclusion, and if we don't believe the conclusion about God, then we have to question if the premises are true.

In this case, I'm having serious problems with a hierarchy within the Trinity, for the reasons I stated above.

I'm a little surprised that no one commented on that little jaunt I was willing to entertain for a moment. I'm still not remember where I was told that the three Persons of the Trinity are "co-equal" … but the very logical implications of them NOT being co-equal provide me with a serious problem with such a teaching.

I do like that about you. Unlike many of us here, you do not dogmatically belt out a statement declaring it to be an indisputable fact because you were told this, or others have believed this for years, or "because that's just how it is".

You almost always admit whatever uncertainty you sense, and say, "I'm still working on this."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah, the problem of using man's logic. Scripture has a very clear example of one person of God, the Son becoming "a lesser god" according to your logic.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Just try and use your logic to explain how an equal power, same as the Father person was made lower, as man and then died. Did Jesus separate from his glorified entity, co-equal with the Father and Holy Spirit when he was born? Did the Son still have his full power in heaven while Jesus was on earth?

Remember what Paul said to the Greek thinkers of his day.
1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

The trinity is hard enough to comprehend without adding more logical arguments to define its existence.

I'm going to agree with Albion here - it seems to read simply enough that Jesus obviously WAS made "lower than angels" in that He became incarnate - a human, bodily - and thus lower than angels in that sense - for a little while.

But I will certainly agree that the Trinity is hard enough to comprehend.

I don't agree that there is something wrong with using our reason to understand Scripture though. God gave us rational minds for a reason. Those men (and I have had such professors) who think they can intellectually understand (and refute) it all, without benefit of the Holy Spirit, are made foolish in their knowledge. But for a believer to use their God-given mind and reason with the help of the Holy Spirit - I don't think this is a wrong approach.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ah, the problem of using man's logic. ...

What kind of logic did you use?

 

[Willie T]

So many don't comprehend that Jesus' death and our atonement has been God's plan since creation.

Acts 2:23 This man [Jesus] was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

1 Peter 1:20 He[Jesus] was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.


I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.

Don't you even realize that you are saying a supposed "fallen angel" is able to create something that God has to hide Himself from? I think you are making evil and sin a LOT more than just man's downfall. You are making him, in your mind, a god capable of creating a situation our God has to run from.

Which, then, would have the greater power?

 

[~Anastasia~]

So many don't comprehend that Jesus' death and our atonement has been God's plan since creation.

No, I understand and agree that Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and that He is our atonement.

What I don't agree with is the way some think that atonement works. Actually - the atonement is wonderful. I believe Christ Jesus accomplished many things with it - victory over death, redeeming mankind, and more. But I don't think there was a bloodthirsty God standing there who had to be appeased by a torturous sacrifice before he was legally able to forgive us.

I do agree that God's purity is so great that it prevents him from dwelling on earth in this sinful state.

Actually this raises another question?

Was Jesus then no longer God?

How was He able to dwell among our sin?


And this one is just a guess. Very much a guess. But I think that it is WE in our sinful state that would have more problems trying to bear the Presence of a Holy God .... than God would have bearing the presence of our sin.

Again ... if God cannot bear being in the presence of sin .... how will the Judgment work? How can sinful (unforgiven) men stand before Him - or how can He allow them to? Will His purity be diminished so that He can bear our presence? And how is it that Satan came and presented himself before God in the conversations regarding Job?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

About the creed that promotes equality in the Trinity.

I'm sorry - I feel as though I should know this, but what Creed are you speaking of that I am confusing it with?

The two other common creeds are the Apostles' Creed and the Athanasian Creed. Both are of unknown origin which goes against the whole purpose of a creed; that being a statement worked out by the religious leaders to affirm certain doctrines that distinguish their faith.

The Athanasian Creed is very strong in proclaiming the equality of the three persons of God. It borders on brain washing in its repetition of equality statements. But what I find most reprehensible about it is the inclusion of a damnation clause; that if you don't believe as it states your salvation is lost.

At this point the creed transitions from being a statement of what man believes to being a statement of what God believes. This damnation clause portends to have the same weight as scripture.

 

[prodromos]

This runs parallel to the claims that God couldn't be around sin, and it made Him so angry He had to vent that wrath on His son.

If we think.

Are we actually giving sin, and its originator so much power that God was, basically, "controlled" by Satan and his sin? This would have to concede that Satan would ALSO have to be an equal to God whom he is influencing, (and even MORE powerful than God since his will made God feel certain ways, and forced Him to have to react to sin.)

No, we don't want to see this obvious conclusion, and we will run, screaming, head-long into a brick wall of illogic denial before we will look at what we are actually saying with our beliefs.

I cringe everytime I hear someone state that God cannot tolerate sin in His presence. God puts up with our miserable failings all the time and I suspect there aren't too many people willing to claim that God is not infinite nor omnipresent. What people should be saying is that sin cannot tolerate God's holiness. Even when Christ was transfigured on Mt Tabor before Peter, James and John, He only revealed His glory "as much as they could bear".

 

[prodromos]

About the creed that promotes equality in the Trinity.



The two other common creeds are the Apostles' Creed and the Athanasian Creed. Both are of unknown origin which goes against the whole purpose of a creed; that being a statement worked out by the religious leaders to affirm certain doctrines that distinguish their faith.

I believe it is widely accepted that they came into being as baptismal statements of faith.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Ah, the problem of using man's logic.

What kind of logic did you use?

I said this in response to a post by Kylissa affirming a belief where she even said she didn't have scripture to back it up.

Show me where I have made conclusions without scripture references and you can question "my logic".

 

[prodromos]

No, I understand and agree that Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and that He is our atonement.

What I don't agree with is the way some think that atonement works. Actually - the atonement is wonderful. I believe Christ Jesus accomplished many things with it - victory over death, redeeming mankind, and more. But I don't think there was a bloodthirsty God standing there who had to be appeased by a torturous sacrifice before he was legally able to forgive us.

Jesus certainly didn't seem to have a problem forgiving people their sins prior to His death on the cross, and subsequent resurrection/ascension.

 

[Willie T]

I cringe everytime I hear someone state that God cannot tolerate sin in His presence. God puts up with our miserable failings all the time and I suspect there aren't too many people willing to claim that God is not infinite nor omnipresent. What people should be saying is that sin cannot tolerate God's holiness. Even when Christ was transfigured on Mt Tabor before Peter, James and John, He only revealed His glory "as much as they could bear".

Yep, it's not much different than a husband telling his bride that he loves her, and can't wait to beat her up so he can show her just how much.

 

[~Anastasia~]

About the creed that promotes equality in the Trinity.



The two other common creeds are the Apostles' Creed and the Athanasian Creed. Both are of unknown origin which goes against the whole purpose of a creed; that being a statement worked out by the religious leaders to affirm certain doctrines that distinguish their faith.

The Athanasian Creed is very strong in proclaiming the equality of the three persons of God. It borders on brain washing in its repetition of equality statements. But what I find most reprehensible about it is the inclusion of a damnation clause; that if you don't believe as it states your salvation is lost.

At this point the creed transitions from being a statement of what man believes to being a statement of what God believes. This damnation clause portends to have the same weight as scripture.

Thank you for the information.

I had heard mention of those Creeds before. The Apostles Creed appears to affirm much of what is in the Nicene Creed. The Athanasian Creed is something I have no memory of reading before.

If your point is that I am making the assertion that the Persons of Godhead are co-equal because I am basing it on the Athanasian Creed directly, that is not true. I am not at all familiar with it.

I see what you mean about the "damnation clause" ... that would be a debate for another thread. It seems to underscore the Incarnation though - and Scripture affirms that we must believe that Christ Jesus came in the flesh in order to be saved.

But overall, I don't appeal to either of those Creeds, and having just skimmed parts of the Athanasian, I am not sure whether I could affirm it or not.

And a belief cannot be proven wrong solely on the basis of being associated with other beliefs or statements that might be problematic. It makes more sense to be skeptical of it, but it is not proof.

I have a disquiet about accepting the idea that co-equal members of the Trinity are based only on the Athanasian Creed. It appears that the Athanasian Creed has not really been accepted/incorporated into my Church's beliefs, but I believe they teach co-equality of the Trinity.

Still looking things up.

But I am still extremely uncomfortable with subjugating members of the Trinity to one another in hierarchical form.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah, the problem of using man's logic.



I said this in response to a post by Kylissa affirming a belief where she even said she didn't have scripture to back it up.

Show me where I have made conclusions without scripture references and you can question "my logic".

We also have to be careful of using Scripture verses picked out here and there and strung together to make a "logical conclusion" - particularly if we are using them not in the context intended.

Scripture has been used to support all kinds of wrong things in this way.

I'm not saying it's wrong to use Scripture to back things up. I'm saying that it's still possible to reach a wrong conclusion ...

 

[Tzaousios]

Ah, the problem of using man's logic.

I said this in response to a post by Kylissa affirming a belief where she even said she didn't have scripture to back it up.

Show me where I have made conclusions without scripture references and you can question "my logic".

It does not matter that you provide Scripture references. You are still using "man's logic" in your particular interpretation of the issue and the relevant texts. It would appear rather hypocritical to accuse others of the same thing that you are doing.

 

[Albion]

I cringe everytime I hear someone state that God cannot tolerate sin in His presence. God puts up with our miserable failings all the time and I suspect there aren't too many people willing to claim that God is not infinite nor omnipresent. What people should be saying is that sin cannot tolerate God's holiness. Even when Christ was transfigured on Mt Tabor before Peter, James and John, He only revealed His glory "as much as they could bear".

When that is said (God cannot tolerate sin in his presence) it refers to his presence in Heaven where souls really come to experience God in a way that doesn't happen on Earth. While it's the case that God is omnipresent, we all know that the Beatific Vision is something more than just the presence of God throughout the material universe.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

That's the point, and I'm surprised it escaped you.

Had the verse said "the second person of the Trinity was made lower than the angels" we'd really have something wouldn't we? That would be a blockbuster. But although you are reading it that way, what it actually says is "Jesus was made lower...."

The reference is to Jesus of Nazareth, the man. God assumed a human nature, you know, and was thereafter both completely God and completely Man. As one of his own creatures, then, it is entirely reasonable to say that he was made lower than the angels for a little while.

My point is that when the Son of God became the man Jesus, he was at a lowered state. If you believed in equality of the Trinity, at this point equality was lost. I used it purely to dismiss the logical argument that Kylissa made that it does not make sense that God could be one god of three persons and not all persons equal. Scriptures explicitly states this is the case.

We believe that the Son of God was not still in heaven with all his original glory while he came to earth as man. From this we have to understand that while still being God, Jesus the man did not have all the knowledge, authority and power he has in heaven. Scripture proof of this:

Luke 2:40 And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on him. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.


This does not prove or disprove the equality of the Trinity in heaven. It only proves that inequality of the Trinity is possible and did at least exist while the Son was on earth as Jesus.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It does not matter that you provide Scripture references. You are still using "man's logic" in your particular interpretation of the issue and the relevant texts. It would appear rather hypocritical to accuse others of the same thing that you are doing.

When I quote numerous scripture verses that support my position and NO ONE has quoted a single verse to the contrary position, it is not hypocrisy.

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I[Jesus].

I have defended what I believe in with scripture. I have not seen one quote of scripture here that says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal.