The new covenant was given to Israel, not Gentiles

[ralliann]

OK.

Who were you asking?

dkh see the correction

 

[HARK!]

dkh see the correction

I don't see how your question relates to what David presented.

 

[Dkh587]

So it is with Spiritual Israel or not?

Does Jeremiah 31:31-33 or Hebrews 8:8 say the new covenant is with spiritual Israel?

If not, then no, the new covenant is not with “spiritual Israel”.

 

[ralliann]

Does Jeremiah 31:31-33 or Hebrews 8:8 say the new covenant is with spiritual Israel?

If not, then no, the new covenant is not with “spiritual Israel”.

Then you mean the nation of Israel as the natural seed.

 

[Dkh587]

Then you mean the nation of Israel as the natural seed.

Jeremiah 31:31-32

Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH

does this say anything about some “spiritual Israel”?

It says the descendants of the nation at Mount Sinai is who the new covenant is with.

No mention of a supposed “spiritual Israel”

 

[ralliann]

Jeremiah 31:31-32


does this say anything about some “spiritual Israel”?

It says the descendants of the nation at Mount Sinai is who the new covenant is with.

No mention of a supposed “spiritual Israel”

Just trying to figure out what you were saying since you said you that I said things you didn't say. As I said before this does not exclude Gentiles at all. It is explained by the new covenant writings. In saying new he has made the first old. The first was exclusive to the nation of Israel. Therefore the first is not made old if not made with those under the old.

 

[Dkh587]

Just trying to figure out what you were saying since you said you that I said things you didn't say. As I said before this does not exclude Gentiles at all. It is explained by the new covenant writings. In saying new he has made the first old. The first was exclusive to the nation of Israel. Therefore the first is not made old if not made with those under the old.

It does exclude Gentiles because the covenant is with a specific group of people.

You can’t be in a covenant made with a group of people and not be part of the group of the people the covenant is made with.

you kept saying that I said we need to be Israel, but I was saying that we ARE Israel through Messiah. These are 2 separate statements.

We join God’s people, Israel, through faith in Messiah, this resulting in us being part of the new covenant God made only with Israel

 

[ralliann]

It does exclude Gentiles because the covenant is with a specific group of people.

You can’t be in a covenant made with a group of people and not be part of the group of the people the covenant is made with.

you kept saying that I said we need to be Israel, but I was saying that we ARE Israel through Messiah. These are 2 separate statements.

We join God’s people, Israel, through faith in Messiah, this resulting in us being part of the new covenant God made only with Israel

No they are not two separate statements. Either you have the nation of Israel as the natural seed, and by the circumcision of the foreskin of the flesh as the old covenant commands, or you have an Israel that is that is altered from that definition. No matter how you speak of it.
No we are joined in Christ, by the new covenant We are not old covenant Israel.

 

[ralliann]

It does exclude Gentiles because the covenant is with a specific group of people.

No it does not say that it is exclusive.

You can’t be in a covenant made with a group of people and not be part of the group of the people the covenant is made with.

you kept saying that I said we need to be Israel, but I was saying that we ARE Israel through Messiah. These are 2 separate statements.

We join God’s people, Israel, through faith in Messiah, this resulting in us being part of the new covenant God made only with Israel

No because the carnal commandment of circumcision has been done away. We are in covenant as Gentiles outwardly and Jews outwardly are in the new covenant by that which is inward circumcision of our hearts.

 

[Dkh587]

No they are not two separate statements. Either you have the nation of Israel as the natural seed, and by the circumcision of the foreskin of the flesh as the old covenant commands, or you have an Israel that is that is altered from that definition. No matter how you speak of it.
No we are joined in Christ, by the new covenant We are not old covenant Israel.

we are new covenant Israel - if you are excluding yourself from Israel, then you exclude yourself from the covenant, as the new covenant is *only* with Israel.

that’s like saying you are not a citizen of the USA, but expecting to get the benefits of what is granted *only* to the citizens of the USA.

it’s the same with the new covenant - the new covenant is only made with Israel, therefore, anybody who is not Israel is not in covenant, and is not able to partake of the new covenant because they do not belong to the group of people that the covenant is made with.

 

[Dkh587]

No it does not say that it is exclusive.

No because the carnal commandment of circumcision has been done away. We are in covenant as Gentiles outwardly and Jews outwardly are in the new covenant by that which is inward circumcision of our hearts.

It’s exclusive with Israel - there is no other nation mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

The old and new covenant are both with Israel only - Messiah made a new covenant, the one that was prophesied, with Israel only. He didn’t go to China and make a new covenant with China.

Paul said we are mediators of the new covenant - he’s referring to the new covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-33. He’s not talking about any other covenant.

we are no longer Gentiles, but God’s people, Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-13

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:19

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God

We are not Gentiles anymore. We are made citizens of Israel, God’s nation, through the blood of Messiah, and are now partakers of the new covenant, because we are now the group of people that God made the new covenant with.

 

[ralliann]

It’s exclusive with Israel - there is no other nation mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

Ah, now you speak of Israel as a nation

The old and new covenant are both with Israel only -

No It does not say with Israel only.

Messiah made a new covenant, the one that was prophesied, with Israel only. He didn’t go to China and make a new covenant with China.

It is a covenant that includes the promise to the Nations to Abraham. It does not say Israel only.
You are confusing the Sinai covenant with the new. The carnal circumcision does not apply to the covenant made in Christ. Genealogy does not apply in Christ.

Paul said we are mediators of the new covenant - he’s referring to the new covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-33. He’s not talking about any other covenant.

we are no longer Gentiles, but God’s people, Israel.

So It is a spiritual Israel now? Make up your mind.

Ephesians 2:11-13


Ephesians 2:19

Ephesians is about the twelve tribes entering before God through the agency of the Levitical priesthood. You do know that the high priest was their anointed one (i.e. Christ) don't you? Thats the Christ Gentiles were without as strangers.
The high priest appeared before the lord with the names of the twelve tribes on his breastplate and his two shoulders. No gentiles names were there.
Ezek. 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Christ Jesus appears on all our behalf before God, not just the twelve tribes.

 

[HARK!]

No It does not say with Israel only.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they/ shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[ralliann]

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they/ shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }
Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }
Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

 

[mkgal1]

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }
Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }
Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Excellent job, Ralliann.

The Holy Spirit affirmed all this when the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles....in the same way .....as those from the House of Judah and House of Israel (on Pentecost - Acts 2).

Acts 10:34-36
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Acts 10:44-46
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!”
​

 

[mkgal1]

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they/ shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

@Christian Gedge , a fellow poster here, has authored a book that explains a timeline....running sort of in the background of the Bible.... that had been set and disclosed by God for His plan of restoration of Israel first and eventually all nations. Here is a thread of Christian Gedge's (for those interested): 280 Weeks are Determined

.....and a video from Bible project:

Quoting Bible Project:
The Bible’s main way of talking about God’s relationship to humanity is the image of a partnership. This video traces the way God entered into a series of formal relationships with various human partners in order to rescue the world through Jesus, the ultimate covenant partner.

"Video: The Covenants | BibleProject™" Video: The Covenants | BibleProject™

 

[BobRyan]

Dkh587 said: ↑
The old and new covenant are both with Israel only -
No It does not say with Israel only.

No It does not say with Israel only.

In the NT it does not mention any other group but Israel for the New Covenant -- Heb 8:6-12.

Which is why a lot of us gentile Christians conclude that we are in some Romans 2:25-29 way - considered by God to be included in that term.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The New Covenant is a fulfilment of promises made to Abraham before there was a Jewish nation.

Abraham is the Father of all who have faith - both Jew and gentile.

 

[mkgal1]

From Chris's thread (emphasis is mine):

Let me stress the importance of the Acts 10 outpouring of the Spirit. The ending of the 280 weeks is all about Gentiles! Yes, the angel told Daniel that the fourth and final “Seventy weeks (era) is determined for your people (the Jews)” but that is the whole point. Israel was the vehicle by which salvation would come to the world, because that was God’s ultimate intention.

So, when I say, “280 weeks were determined for Israel,” I believe it meant 1960 years would pass and then the times of the Gentiles would begin. The destiny of Israel climaxes with good news to the world! Accordingly, St. Peter said to the Jews:

“Men of Israel … you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
(Acts 3: 25-26)​

In other words, he confirmed the covenant by guaranteeing first option to the children of the covenant then afterward by granting the good news to the Gentiles as he had promised all those years before. St. Paul also picks up on this theme:

“For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.”
(Romans 15:8-9)​

The New Covenant is a fulfilment of promises made to Abraham before there was a Jewish nation.

Abraham is the Father of all who have faith - both Jew and gentile.

Exactly.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Gal 3:19

18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise. 19 Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator.