The new covenant was given to Israel, not Gentiles

[ralliann]

I didn’t say we must be, we ARE grafted in.

Same difference

The new covenant is with Israel only

See, that's why you say we are grafted in

It does not say only with Israel. The context is it's effect on the covenant which was exclusive to Israel was made old.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Hebrews 8:8-10

we can’t be in the new covenant if we are not Israel, which is part of us being in Messiah.

We certainly can and are. In Christ Jesus all men have citizenship in the kingdom promised Abraham.

We are grafted into Israel through Messiah, and we join God’s people, which is Israel, and are partakers of the new covenant, made only with Israel, which is what this thread is about.

See there you go again. I do not need to be graft into the natural seed.

not only that, we become Abraham’s seed through Messiah.

That's correct. We are his seed because of the promise made to Abraham all men are made children of promise through Christ.

 

[Dkh587]

Same difference

See, that's why you say we are grafted in

It does not say only with Israel. The context is it's effect on the covenant which was exclusive to Israel was made old.

We certainly can and are. In Christ Jesus all men have citizenship in the kingdom promised Abraham.

See there you go again. I do not need to be graft into the natural seed.

That's correct. We are his seed because of the promise made to Abraham all men are made children of promise through Christ.

Will you please show me where God, Messiah, a prophet and/or an apostle spoke of there being a new covenant made with a group of people other than Israel?

 

[ralliann]

Will you please show me where God, Messiah, a prophet and/or an apostle spoke of there being a new covenant made with a group of people other than Israel?

It is right here....I do not need to be a part of one nation.
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }
Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }
Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

 

[DamianWarS]

What do you mean by new Israel?

we may comment on the inclusivity of the OT Israel and argue that Israel never really was about what household you were born into. I'm not saying you're making this argument per se but there is still is a marked difference between how that inclusivity looks in the new covenant when contrasted with the old and it is this difference that I am calling new.

 

[HARK!]

It does not say only with Israel.

This does:

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And, in the end, YHWH's covenant doesn't mention anyone but Israel.

 

[HARK!]

See there you go again. I do not need to be graft into the natural seed.

We aren't grafted into the seed. I've never heard of such a thing. We are grafted into the natural tree. Yahshua is the root.

 

[ralliann]

This does:

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Commissioned for what?
So are you putting forth the notion that the blood of the covenant is only for the sins of Israel?
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

And, in the end, YHWH's covenant doesn't mention anyone but Israel.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek }
Ro 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 

[ralliann]

We aren't grafted into the seed. I've never heard of such a thing. We are grafted into the natural tree. Yahshua is the root.

Because Israel is the natural seed. The natural seed is not the same as the natural tree. The natural seed are branches, not the tree.

20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;

22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

 

[HARK!]

Commissioned for what?

...for the lost sheep of the house of Israel

So are you putting forth the notion that the blood of the covenant is only for the sins of Israel?

You put that forth; not I. Would not the blood of the covenant be for those who are in covenant?

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Ro 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek }
Ro 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Dkh587]

we may comment on the inclusivity of the OT Israel and argue that Israel never really was about what household you were born into. I'm not saying you're making this argument per se but there is still is a marked difference between how that inclusivity looks in the new covenant when contrasted with the old and it is this difference that I am calling new.

I’m not following, because the prophet Jeremiah(Nor anybody else) does not say anything about a “new Israel”

the new covenant is with the descendants of the Israelites whom God delivered out of Egypt into the wilderness:

Jeremiah 31:31-32

Behold, the days come, saith YAHWEH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YAHWEH

Notice the word “their” is used to indicate that the people he(God) is making a covenant with descend from the people he made the original covenant with.

there is no such thing as “new Israel“, nor should we think there is, as Jeremiah nor any other prophets or apostles gave us any reason to think so.

 

[Dkh587]

It is right here....I do not need to be a part of one nation.
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }
Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }
Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

That doesn’t say anything about a new covenant - did you have any other verses showing a new covenant made with anybody other than Israel? the ones you referenced did not do that.

Btw, the covenant you’re quoting is a covenant between God & Abraham, not God and Gentiles.

 

[HARK!]

Because Israel is the natural seed

Again I've never heard of anyone grafting into seed. If this is even possible; I don't believe they were doing so, in the time of Yahshua. We are grafted into the tree, not the seed, as it is written.

 

[ralliann]

...for the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Commissioned to do what Hark?

You put that forth; not I.

I put forth that the blood of the covenant is in Christs sacrifice.

Would not the blood of the covenant be for those who are in covenant?

Yes which blood is for all men not just a certain few jews.

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

Right, we are all circumcised of the heart in Christ Jesus.

 

[ralliann]

That doesn’t say anything about a new covenant - did you have any other verses showing a new covenant made with anybody other than Israel?

There ya go again with your replacement theology.
God promised in covenant to Abraham he would be made a father to many nations not just one.

he ones you referenced did not do that.

The promise concerned many nations not just one.

Btw, the covenant you’re quoting is a covenant between God & Abraham

Exactly

not God and Gentiles.

Neither for Jews then.

 

[DamianWarS]

I’m not following, because the prophet Jeremiah(Nor anybody else) does not say anything about a “new Israel”

the new covenant is with the descendants of the Israelites whom God delivered out of Egypt into the wilderness:

Jeremiah 31:31-32

Notice the word “their” is used to indicate that the people he(God) is making a covenant with descend from the people he made the original covenant with.

there is no such thing as “new Israel“

Physical Israel and spiritual Israel. I'm not sure why there is an aversion to the language or pretending nothing is different.

 

[ralliann]

Physical Israel and spiritual Israel. I'm not sure why there is an aversion to the language or pretending nothing is different.

I don't know why they ignore God's promises to to many nations in Christ to our father Abraham. they accept them for one nation Israel but refuse them for the many nations.

 

[ralliann]

I’m not following, because the prophet Jeremiah(Nor anybody else) does not say anything about a “new Israel”

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

the new covenant is with the descendants of the Israelites whom God delivered out of Egypt into the wilderness:

Making a covenant with the nations does not make the Sinai covenant old. If not to the Jew first the covenant would not be a new one, nor make the original old. It would merely be another covenant God made with men.

Jeremiah 31:31-32

Notice the word “their” is used to indicate that the people he(God) is making a covenant with descend from the people he made the original covenant with.

Yeah because the law they were judged by was bringing its wrath upon them. This was an escape from it.

there is no such thing as “new Israel“, nor should we think there is, as Jeremiah nor any other prophets or apostles gave us any reason to think so.

There is no reason to think there is no spiritual circumcision either. But their is. For Jew and Greek , man or woman. Circumcision of our hearts, not done by human hands

 

[HARK!]

Commissioned to do what Hark?

Gather the lost sheep of Israel.

I put forth that the blood of the covenant is in Christs sacrifice.

That sacrifice is for Israel.

Yes which blood is for all men not just a certain few jews.

It's for Israel, not for men, not for Jews.

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

Right, we are all circumcised of the heart in Christ Jesus.

All who are Israel are circumcised of the heart in Yahshua.

 

[HARK!]

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Not one mention of "new Israel' in that verse.

 

[HARK!]

Making a covenant with the nations does not make the Sinai covenant old. If not to the Jew first the covenant would not be a new one, nor make the original old. It would merely be another covenant God made with men.

YHWH made a covenant with the nations at Sinai in the mixed multitude. The renewed covenant isn't about calling the nations to be Hebrews. YHWH was calling the nations to be Hebrews before Sinai.