The Myth of Morality

[The Nihilist]

Close, but no cigar..

It is not a gift from God, but the gift OF God in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Because you refuse Him, who's faith it is!

Zeena, I don't know whether you've forgotten, but the verse from Ephesians is directly contradicted by Matthew. You must explain how these two fit together before anyone needs to take it seriously.

 

[Zeena]

Zeena, I don't know whether you've forgotten, but the verse from Ephesians is directly contradicted by Matthew. You must explain how these two fit together before anyone needs to take it seriously.

To what verse of Mathew are you referring please?

 

[The Nihilist]

To what verse of Mathew are you referring please?

Mattew 25:31-46, which suggests that God's only criterion for who get into heaven is good works

 

[Zeena]

Mattew 25:31-46, which suggests that God's only criterion for who get into heaven is good works

NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE GOD'S CHILDREN
"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10.
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."" Romans 8:14,15.
"that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world," Philippians 2:15.
"Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty."" 2 Corinthians 6:17,18. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:" John 1:12.

SINCERITY IS NOT ENOUGH
"Jesus said to him," 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the first and great commandment." Matthew 22:37,38.
"Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'" And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." Mark 10:17-22. "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25.

BE NOT DECEIVED
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." Galatians 6:7.
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:7,8.
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Ephesians 5:6.
"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." James 1:22. "For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Galatians 6:3.

SIN BRINGS DEATH
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--" Romans 5:12.
"Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." James 1:15.
"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Romans 8:6,7.
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:20.
"'It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.'" Luke 15:32. "As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death." Proverbs 11:19.

YOU CANNOT HIDE FROM GOD
"For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves." Job 34:21,22.
"Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD." Jeremiah 23:24.
"If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." Psalms 139:8, NKJV."Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You." Psalms 139:12.
"The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good." Proverbs 15:3.
"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account." Hebrews 4:13. "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light." Luke 8:17.

REPENTANCE
"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent," Acts 17:30.
"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Luke 13:3.
"and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!'" Matthew 3:2.
"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'....'Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,'" Acts 2:38; 3:19.
"Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit..." Ezekiel 18:31a.
"He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." 2 Corinthians 7:10.

JUDGMENT AHEAD
"because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:31.
"then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment," 2 Peter 2:9.
"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." 1 John 4:17.
"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Hebrews 9:27.
"... And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Revelation 20:12b.
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10. "So then each of us shall give account of himself to God." Romans 14:12.

ETERNAL PUNISHMENT OF THE UNGODLY
"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:41,42.
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God." Psalms 9:17.
"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.
"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
"If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire." Matthew 18:8. "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46.

Many people who think that they are Christians are not truly saved. This conclusion is based on Christ's warning in the Sermon on the Mount: "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it ... Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matt. 7:13-14,22-23). It would be tragic to have FALSE assurance and no salvation!

What is the difference between merely professing faith and really possessing faith? Saving faith opens the heart's door to the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9; Cf. John 1:12). The Holy Spirit's presence will be evidenced by the believer's good works and continued faith (James 2:14-19; Col. 3:23). Children of God have His love for their brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 4:7-16). [1]
So, going forward at a meeting, praying a sinner's prayer, even being water baptized, does not prove someone is converted to Christ. Repentance is the "flip side of the coin" of saving faith in Christ (Acts 17:30). It involves conviction of our guilt before a holy God, our inability to save ourselves, and a cry for mercy to escape hell. There is a cost to following Christ, but it costs more to NOT follow Him! (Luke 9:23,57-62)
Some identify themselves as Christians, but their departure from the faith reveals that they never were born again. As the apostle John put it, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" (1 John 2:19; Cf. John 3:3).
Let's not miss this: good works are the FRUIT of salvation, not the ROOT. We are NOT saved by a mixture of faith and works of merit; we are saved by Grace through FAITH plus zero! "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5; Cf. Eph. 2:8,9). We are to fully depend upon Christ for salvation, not ourselves or a church. In light of this, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize yourselves, that Christ Jesus is in you? --unless, of course, you fail the test?" (2 Cor. 13:4-5 NIV; Cf. 2 Pet 1:10).

http://www.gracenotebook.com/pub/220

 

[The Nihilist]

NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE GOD'S CHILDREN
"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10.
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."" Romans 8:14,15.
"that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world," Philippians 2:15.
"Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty."" 2 Corinthians 6:17,18. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:" John 1:12.

SINCERITY IS NOT ENOUGH
"Jesus said to him," 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the first and great commandment." Matthew 22:37,38.
"Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'" And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." Mark 10:17-22. "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25.

BE NOT DECEIVED
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." Galatians 6:7.
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:7,8.
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Ephesians 5:6.
"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." James 1:22. "For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Galatians 6:3.

SIN BRINGS DEATH
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--" Romans 5:12.
"Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." James 1:15.
"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Romans 8:6,7.
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:20.
"'It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.'" Luke 15:32. "As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death." Proverbs 11:19.

YOU CANNOT HIDE FROM GOD
"For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves." Job 34:21,22.
"Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD." Jeremiah 23:24.
"If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." Psalms 139:8, NKJV."Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You." Psalms 139:12.
"The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good." Proverbs 15:3.
"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account." Hebrews 4:13. "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light." Luke 8:17.

REPENTANCE
"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent," Acts 17:30.
"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Luke 13:3.
"and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!'" Matthew 3:2.
"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'....'Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,'" Acts 2:38; 3:19.
"Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit..." Ezekiel 18:31a.
"He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." 2 Corinthians 7:10.

JUDGMENT AHEAD
"because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." Acts 17:31.
"then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment," 2 Peter 2:9.
"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." 1 John 4:17.
"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Hebrews 9:27.
"... And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Revelation 20:12b.
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10. "So then each of us shall give account of himself to God." Romans 14:12.

ETERNAL PUNISHMENT OF THE UNGODLY
"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:41,42.
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God." Psalms 9:17.
"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.
"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
"If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire." Matthew 18:8. "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46.



http://www.gracenotebook.com/pub/220

ZEENA! NO! YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION AT ALL!


All you've done so far to respond is post verses that DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the verses from Matthew, in which those who perform good works go to heaven. If the bible is contradictory, then it's false, so you have to fix it.

 

[Zeena]

ZEENA! NO! YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION AT ALL!


All you've done so far to respond is post verses that DIRECTLY CONTRADICT the verses from Matthew, in which those who perform good works go to heaven. If the bible is contradictory, then it's false, so you have to fix it.

In all actuality, you didn't really read those verses at all, did you..?

For they indeed AGREE with your assertation of works!

 

[Zeena]

It would be tragic to have FALSE assurance and no salvation!

Those people in those verses you quoted, were never really saved to begin with!

 

[The Nihilist]

In all actuality, you didn't really read those verses at all, did you..?

For they indeed AGREE with your assertation of works!

Really? Because I don't get that from your post at all. Do you agree, then, that it is through works that we are saved?

 

[Zeena]

Really? Because I don't get that from your post at all. Do you agree, then, that it is through works that we are saved?

Not that we are saved by our works, but that our works do testify that we are.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

http://www.carm.org/diff/Eph2_8.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/lose_salvation.htm

 

[The Nihilist]

Not that we are saved by our works, but that our works do testify that we are.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

http://www.carm.org/diff/Eph2_8.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/lose_salvation.htm

So anyone who does good works goes to heaven?

 

[Zeena]

Not that we are saved by our works, but that our works do testify that we are.

So anyone who does good works goes to heaven?

No. Only those who submit to the work of God in Christ on their behalf.

Ephesians 1:19b-23
according to that working of the strength of his might which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Jesus did the work.

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

We either receive Him or we don't.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If we open the door [by Grace]..

Ephesians 3:20-21
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all generations for ever and ever. Amen.

There's a really good analogy given us in the Scripture of one such man who had no chance to perform any good works [although he surely would have if given to opportunity to come down];

Jesus was on the cross, being crucified for the sins of the world, and there was a thief beside Him who said this;

Luke 23:42-42
And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

That man entered into Paradise with Jesus that very night.
Because he had believed on Jesus as the Massiah, for he indeed did testify 'when thou comest in thy kingdom'.

 

[Verv]

Yes yes, that's quite enough. I know that works are not supposed to be enough to save you. But they are supposed to be an indicator of what's on the inside.

Some people do good works to hide bad works that they do. Some people are trying too hard to be good people because they know intimtely of their own personal flaws.

And yes, this definitely applies to Christians. Many say that this is why there is a prevalence of homosexual Priests.

Heh, I know.

What is faith but a work, anyway?

Faith involves an internal act and in this sense is not a work.

 

[mpok1519]

i think theres some value in this; whats good for one might be bad for another in a roundabout sort of way.

 

[Zeena]

It's nice to see some Christians around!

Praise God!

 

[cantata]

John 3:20-21
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

This does not at all explain why only some people have faith. It rather suggests that it is works which are needed in order to be saved.

Why is the faith part needed, if turning from evil is the bit that really matters to God?

Faith involves an internal act and in this sense is not a work.

Is fantasizing about a woman other than your wife a work?

Is prayer a work?

 

[mpok1519]

Work is actually force times displacement times the cosign of the angle between the force and displacement vector.

I dont know if prayer can be mathematically proven to have an effect on anything....

 

[The Nihilist]

No. Only those who submit to the work of God in Christ on their behalf.

That's not the way it looks in Matthew at all

 

[Verv]

Is fantasizing about a woman other than your wife a work?

Is prayer a work?

I do not think so... It is a sin called lust. A sin does not necessarily have to be a work.

It seems we are getting into semantics.

I'd rather drop this than press it on. We have the potential for warring over definitions of words and that is about as meaningful as a Barack Obama speech.

 

[Belk]

Work is actually force times displacement times the cosign of the angle between the force and displacement vector.

I dont know if prayer can be mathematically proven to have an effect on anything....

I had always heard it as Force X Distance. You learn something new every day.

http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/PhyNet/Mechanics/Energy/Work.html

 

[Zeena]

That's not the way it looks in Matthew at all

But you're not looking at Mathew in the context that it is written!

Jesus is speaking OF THOSE WHO HE DID NOT KNOW.

They were NEVER saved to begin with!

Therefore, THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THIER WORKS.

AND fall woefully short!

And be cast alive into the Lake of Fire!!!

2 Peter 2:17
These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever.