The Myth of Morality

[The Nihilist]

YOU either accept it or reject it.

It's a FREE choice, your sins are paid for, but forgiveness will NOT be credited to YOUR account unless YOU receive it by Grace, through faith!

I think you mean unless I do good works. Not like it matters, you've made it clear you're not reading what anyone posts

 

[cantata]

forgiveness will NOT be credited to YOUR account unless YOU receive it by Grace, through faith!

Why not?

Suppose I've got a gift for someone, but I don't tell them - I just stand around waiting for them to ask for it. Would you be surprised if they never accepted it?

It seems better all round to just give them the gift...

Or suppose that I have a gift for someone, the use of which is not immediately obvious, but it's something they'll really need in five years' time. So I try to give them the gift, and they say, "Thanks, but no thanks - I don't need one of those." I'm unable to persuade them that they need it. What's the kind thing to do in this situation? Well, it seems obvious to me that the kind thing to do is to keep the gift safe, and then give it to them when it's clear to them that they need it. It's not kind to try to push it on them for five years, and then on the day that they actually need it, to say "Well you didn't accept it before so you can't have it now, HA HA."

 

[Zeena]

Why not?

Suppose I've got a gift for someone, but I don't tell them - I just stand around waiting for them to ask for it. Would you be surprised if they never accepted it?

He DID tell you, and is telling you now!!!

It seems better all round to just give them the gift...

Love is a two-way street Cantata, either you chose to go in headlong, or you don't go in AT ALL..

Or suppose that I have a gift for someone, the use of which is not immediately obvious, but it's something they'll really need in five years' time. So I try to give them the gift, and they say, "Thanks, but no thanks - I don't need one of those." I'm unable to persuade them that they need it.

This is the gift that EVERYONE is in need of.

What's the kind thing to do in this situation? Well, it seems obvious to me that the kind thing to do is to keep the gift safe, and then give it to them when it's clear to them that they need it. It's not kind to try to push it on them for five years, and then on the day that they actually need it, to say "Well you didn't accept it before so you can't have it now, HA HA."

Now that's just crule!

 

[cantata]

Now that's just crule!

Right, but that's what I see God doing, according to the way you're describing the system. You're offered a gift for your whole life, the use of which you are unable to see. Then, on the day when you actually see that you need it - the day you die - the offer is suddenly withdrawn.

 

[Belk]

YOU either accept it or reject it.

It's a FREE choice, your sins are paid for, but forgiveness will NOT be credited to YOUR account unless YOU receive it by Grace, through faith!

It's a free gift, as long as you sign up, open an account, and pay your dues.

 

[Zeena]

Right, but that's what I see God doing, according to the way you're describing the system. You're offered a gift for your whole life, the use of which you are unable to see. Then, on the day when you actually see that you need it - the day you die - the offer is suddenly withdrawn.

Romans 4:16-17
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

 

[cantata]

Romans 4:16-17
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Could you try to respond in your own words, or at least in the words of a translation that wasn't first published in 1611?

 

[Zeena]

Could you try to respond in your own words, or at least in the words of a translation that wasn't first published in 1611?

Sure!

NKJV, in better context;

Romans 4

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision


9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.


The Promise Granted Through Faith


13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

 

[cantata]

Sure!

NKJV, in better context;

Romans 4

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision


9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.


The Promise Granted Through Faith


13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Okay, we have the passage, in a slightly more intelligible form. Now perhaps you could offer your commentary in order to explain why you think it's relevant to my earlier remarks.

 

[Zeena]

Okay, we have the passage, in a slightly more intelligible form. Now perhaps you could offer your commentary in order to explain why you think it's relevant to my earlier remarks.

Right, but that's what I see God doing, according to the way you're describing the system. You're offered a gift for your whole life, the use of which you are unable to see. Then, on the day when you actually see that you need it - the day you die - the offer is suddenly withdrawn.

The offer of Salvation is of Grace through faith, and when you die you can no longer make the decision to turn to Him in FAITH, because you will be in the presence of Him from whom lies and deception flee!

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Jesus is the Truth! And to be in His presence is to be in the presence of Truth. God knows the heart and He see's all things, even you..

Luke 8:17
For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

Hebrews 9:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Zeena]

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Zeena]

What? No. A bunch of those judged solely on their works entered heaven. Did you even read the verses?

They entered Heaven for they KNEW Him.

As those were sent to hell who did not!

Moreover, I think it's a creative interpretation on your part to suggest that only nonchristians were judged in that manner. That's not included in the text at all.

It's not 'creative interpretation' on my part..

http://ldolphin.org/Gwhite.html

http://ldolphin.org/Jseat.htmlhttp://www.allaboutgod.com/Bema-Seat.htm

 

[cantata]

I'll be honest with you, Zeena. I find the theology you are propounding both unnecessarily over-complicated and tragically naïve. I'm sure you think the god you're describing is the nicest guy in the world, and at least you think you're saved, I guess, so you don't have to worry about anything. But the lengthy quotations from scripture, the absence of real commentary or argument, the KJV-speak even when you're writing in your own words, and the insistence that human beings are deserving of the worst punishments imaginable, suggest to me nothing more profound than sheer desperation. Your position is, to any outsider (and a lot of insiders too), utterly incoherent. I realise that you don't want it to be, and I appreciate that the theological gymnastics are a necessary part of squaring the many conflicting facets of your faith with one another. I sincerely wish you good luck with it. I'm glad it makes you happy. However, I'm afraid it makes me very, very sad.

Best regards,
Cantata

 

[Zeena]

It's a free gift, as long as you sign up, open an account, and pay your dues.

That's right!

Luke 14:27-33 ASV
Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doth not first sit down and count the cost, whether he have wherewith to complete it? Lest haply, when he hath laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all that behold begin to mock him, saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Or what king, as he goeth to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and asketh conditions of peace. So therefore whosoever he be of you that renounceth not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mark 8:34 ASV
And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[Belk]

That's right!

Luke 14:27-33 ASV
Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doth not first sit down and count the cost, whether he have wherewith to complete it? Lest haply, when he hath laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all that behold begin to mock him, saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Or what king, as he goeth to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and asketh conditions of peace. So therefore whosoever he be of you that renounceth not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mark 8:34 ASV
And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Zeena, are you even following the debate here? Or is this just an excuse for you to post scripture at us? Because, frankly, if you are not going to bother actually engaging me as an equal there is no point in posting responses to me.