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The Murder Of George Floyd

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Handmaid for Jesus

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The subjugated and disenfranchised achieve little and lose much by violence. Ghandi proved that you don't need to be violent. So did Martin Luther King. Violence plays into the hands of authoritarians. It gives them the opportunity to whittle away your freedoms while pretending to enforce law and order. The people of Hong Kong are finding this out right now. Will the rest of the world step in and protect them? Not a hope. The world bullied poor little South Africa into ending apartheid. The worst they will do to China is send a diplomatic note of disapproval. All that violence will do for minorities in the US is reinforce existing prejudices.
While your advice is reasonable, understand the pain these people are feeling. And it is very hard to reason with people who are in heartache pain and anger. Yes it is spiritual. But hurting people hurt people.Like I said earlier, this has been festering for a while.
 
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ximmix

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The bolded is not at all the way law enforcement works in the United States. Are you kidding?

People get arrested every day and confined often for months before the prosecutor is ready to go to trial. Arrest and confinement almost always happen before charges are filed--before prosecutors even come to work that day.

Maybe we should have a fact check here, like the one der Trump got all is panties twisted about...
 
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eleos1954

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Depending on the laws of the state, a murder charge may not require premeditation. In Texas, per-medidiation is merely the distinction between ordinary "murder" and "capital murder." In other states, it will generally be a difference between degrees of murder...but all of them "murder" nevertheless.

found this ...

Homicide is simply the killing of one person by another. It may or may not be illegal. Soldiers in battle commit homicide without committing a crime. Citizens kill intruders without committing a crime. So, what is it that separates a legal homicide from an illegal murder? And, what makes one killing a murder and another a manslaughter?

Murder is a homicide committed with “malice aforethought.” That doesn’t mean it is a malicious killing. Malice aforethought is the common law way of saying that it is an unjustified killing. And, for a killing to be a murder, there typically has to be either an intent to kill, or, at minimum, conduct so reckless that it is punishable as murder.

so appears you are correct ... I had always thought murder required premeditation ... it is the way the word is defined in the dictionary ... so this incident very well could be .... nonetheless ... will have to wait and see.
 
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Junia

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I shouldn't have to fear for my life when I get pulled over by a cop.

I shouldn't have to fear for my life when I go jogging.

I shouldn't have to fear for my life when I'm coming home from the store with a bag of Skittles.

I shouldn't have to fear my life when I'm playing music a little too loud.


I shouldn't have to fear for my life because of my skin colour.

amen!!
 
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Kaon

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The subjugated and disenfranchised achieve little and lose much by violence.

The subjugated and disenfranchised achieve little no matter how much they achieve; that is the point. They are disenfranchised because despite their ability and demonstration to perform at or above the levels of their peers they are still considered tragic. They are subjugated because their peers pre-judge them based on their demographics, culture, skin color, sex, orientation, etc.

Ghandi proved that you don't need to be violent.

Ghandi had to nearly starve himself to prove his points - several times, for more than two weeks. He used the display of a non-violent entity in search of piece - starving nearly to death because of [insert subjugation and disenfranchisement here] and the failure of civilization/government to recognize and prevent it. But, going on a hunger strike is violent to self; if he had died it would have been suicide by starvation.

The better question is why does someone have to starve one's self for civilized, technologically advanced individuals with morals to recognize injustice? This question needs to be asked in America similarly:

How can Black American Citizens continue to be brutalized and killed by law enforcement in their own nation - on camera, and frequently - and why do the citizens allow it?

So did Martin Luther King.

And, yet he was still assassinated. And, let's not forget the government itself threatened MLK's nonviolence - which shows nothing has actually changed.

Violence plays into the hands of authoritarians. It gives them the opportunity to whittle away your freedoms while pretending to enforce law and order.

Yes, but this isn't about the authoritarians anymore; this is about the people. The people that ignore these things talked about, and the people that apologize for situations of (what should be) clear signs of gross mistreatment and injustice embolden the authoritarians to do what they do. In reality the authoritarians have set forth an excellent campaign to keep the one power the people have that could take them down: each other.

They have convinced people that they are different, that skin color and zip code matters - when in reality, all that matters is birthname and connections to power. You can be filthy rich and have no real power in the world. People running amok explaining away clear abuses of power and injustice don't realize they will experience the same treatment because of an apology for the injustices.

As The people of Hong Kong are finding this out right now. Will the rest of the world step in and protect them? Not a hope.

They already know/knew this; that is why they are doing what they have been doing.

The world bullied poor little South Africa into ending apartheid.

They were bullied into ending apartheid? So they should have kept apartheid in S.A.?

Again, Africa is the world's tragic story; no one actually cares about African apartheid except for that "bad press" you mentioned. They weren't bullied into ending apartheid; they could have kept it up - but just lost their funding and trade partners. There is always a choice.

But, it would be ludicrous to believe apartheid ended for reasons other than financial instability and the threat of losing allies and trade partners - the same reason slavery "ended" in the States. You can tell the quality of a nation by the way they treat their "lowest" society members.

The worst they will do to China is send a diplomatic note of disapproval. All that violence will do for minorities in the US is reinforce existing prejudices.

People have the choice to change their prejudices, but they don't because they are comfortable, cultural and familiar. That is why the incident in the OP can happen, and why even in protests this extreme there will be nothing to come from it - because nothing will ever come from it.

You don't seem to be able to empathize with being someone who "everyone thinks is a no good thug that cant do anything right, a tragic case that must be taught how to live as if you were a child, and so disposable that the majority of the nation that alleges to be your home is comfortable with sending you to prison if the right person simply says, ".. black guy is [insert falsehood here]". It isn't hard to empathize with animals, right? It shouldn't be hard to empathize with humans if you are a human because you are the same species.

You don't have to be black to empathize with what its like to be Black in America: you just have to have eyes (or, these days only ears). There are already enough people who are being called traitors to their race because they have the audacity to call out this behavior. But, in general when it happens to people that matter in the States then we will hear the same pleas we are hearing the "thugs" project now. Except, anyone that could have helped would have already been gone/lost/forgotten.
 
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Kaon

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This could be a chapter in the history books that we won't be so proud of...

It's bad, but promoting cultural separation of your own nation's citizens is far worse than not stepping in for another nation that chooses not to care for its own. So, Hong Kong will be better than America; they are fighting the climb toward totalitarianism. But, at least they can do it as a culturally cohesive entity - for the most part. (Although, similar tactics of separation by culture used in Apartheid are being used there). America doesn't have a chance with the "self-destabalization", cultural agnosticism and ignored historical patters we willingly extol.
 
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ximmix

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It's bad, but promoting cultural separation of your own nation's citizens is far worse than not stepping in for another nation that chooses not to care for its own. So, Hong Kong will be better than America; they are fighting the climb toward totalitarianism. But, at least they can do it as a culturally cohesive entity - for the most part. (Although, similar tactics of separation by culture used in Apartheid are being used there). America doesn't have a chance with the "self-destabalization", cultural agnosticism and ignored historical patters we willingly extol.

I see China using the pandemic as an excuse for moving in on Hong Kong, removing all their freedoms that they were once granted..
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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I see China using the pandemic as an excuse for moving in on Hong Kong, removing all their freedoms that they were once granted..
This needs it's own thread.
 
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ximmix

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I see China using the pandemic as an excuse for moving in on Hong Kong, removing all their freedoms that they were once granted..

the silly thing about that is, HK has been a motor for china's economy. If China swallows HK, it will be a loss in their finances to china. that is why i think this overtaking is idealogical, not econimical. and that is very scary...
 
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ZNP

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The bolded is not at all the way law enforcement works in the United States. Are you kidding?

People get arrested every day and confined often for months before the prosecutor is ready to go to trial. Arrest and confinement almost always happen before charges are filed--before prosecutors even come to work that day.
Are you a lawyer?

1. If the indictment is deficient then it is the basis for an appeal.
2. The indictment has to be specific enough for the defendant to develop their defense. For example, in this case if you fail to mention that want to use evidence from things the police have said to other officers and online in various social media to support a case of racism, hate crime, or even premeditated murder then you need to state that in the complaint. How can they do that if they haven't questioned and investigated this first?

Yes if you want to make a very simple claim of negligent homicide you probably could do that rapidly.

3. The indictment has to be specific enough so that the defendant can use it for a claim of double jeopardy. So no, you can't start with "negligent homicide" and then jump it up to a hate crime or premeditated murder based on things that were not mentioned in the complaint.
 
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ximmix

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Are you a lawyer?

1. If the indictment is deficient then it is the basis for an appeal.
2. The indictment has to be specific enough for the defendant to develop their defense. For example, in this case if you fail to mention that want to use evidence from things the police have said to other officers and online in various social media to support a case of racism, hate crime, or even premeditated murder then you need to state that in the complaint. How can they do that if they haven't questioned and investigated this first?

Yes if you want to make a very simple claim of negligent homicide you probably could do that rapidly.

There is a video tho, will that be played in the trial?
 
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Sparagmos

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George Floyd killing: two officers involved previously reviewed for use of force

When is this going to end? When are they going to stop killing our brothers for no reason?

Our skin colour is NOT a reason to be murdered. This is evil. So evil. We can't keep being killed like this. This has to stop NOW.

All Lives don't Matter until Black Lives Matter.

No Justice, No Peace.

I'm not gonna just sit there and let them kill us off for our colour. This is coming to a stop.

Those cops are MURDERERS. Period. All cops involved with George's death are MURDERERS.

We are dying due to so many cops and beatings, harassment and shootings, and even citizen vigilantism.

No racism, but it is mostly white cops killing us. White people calling the cops on us. White people yelling slurs at us for NO REASON.

Again, I'm not racist, but I'm just pointing out the facts. This is horrible.

Please sign this petition, or call the number, to bring light to George's death, and to charge these murderers:

Justice for Big Floyd
Signed it!
 
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RDKirk

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Are you a lawyer?

1. If the indictment is deficient then it is the basis for an appeal.
2. The indictment has to be specific enough for the defendant to develop their defense. For example, in this case if you fail to mention that want to use evidence from things the police have said to other officers and online in various social media to support a case of racism, hate crime, or even premeditated murder then you need to state that in the complaint. How can they do that if they haven't questioned and investigated this first?

Yes if you want to make a very simple claim of negligent homicide you probably could do that rapidly.

You were talking about arrests, not indictments. You specifically said:

If you are not ready to go to trial you are not ready to arrest.

And anyone who has paid any attention to law enforcement--or just read the local police blotter--knows that people get arrested and confined every day in every city long before prosecutors are ready to go to trial.

Moving the goalpost.gif
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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the silly thing about that is, HK has been a motor for china's economy. If China swallows HK, it will be a loss in their finances to china. that is why i think this overtaking is idealogical, not econimical. and that is very scary...
Take it to ANOTHER THREAD!
 
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ZNP

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There is a video tho, will that be played in the trial?
The video is not proof of a hate crime or premeditated murder. Do you really want to convict them on "negligent homicide", when it then turns out there was evidence for premeditated murder and a hate crime?
 
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ximmix

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The video is not proof of a hate crime or premeditated murder. Do you really want to convict them on "negligent homicide", when it then turns out there was evidence for premeditated murder and a hate crime?

I'll let the jury decide, and in their minds switch a black man for a white man. how would u react..?
 
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ZNP

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You were talking about arrests, not indictments. You specifically said:



And anyone who has paid any attention to law enforcement--or just read the local police blotter--knows that people get arrested and confined every day in every city long before prosecutors are ready to go to trial.

View attachment 277852
You can only hold someone for 72 hours before you have to make the complaint or release them.

Dylan Roof killed people in a church on June 17th, he wasn't indicted until July 7th. It takes time to build a case for a hate crime.

The following is an article about a man who was convicted of a hate crime committed in June of 2015 and convicted. He wasn't convicted until December of 2016. This case was personal for me because the mother of a close friend of our family was killed in this crime.

Why hate crimes are so difficult to convict

Why hate crimes are so difficult to convict


On June 17, 2015, just after 8 p.m., 21-year-old Dylann Roof walked into a bible study session at the historically black Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina with a .45-caliber Glock pistol and seven extra loaded magazines. He sat in the prayer meeting for nearly an hour before opening fire on the worshippers, murdering nine people, including the pastor.

A website discovered shortly after the shooting and registered under Roof’s name showed him posing with the confederate flag, embracing Nazi symbols and included a manifesto that supported segregation and criticized black people as inferior.

documented history of racial bias both from character witnesses and internet activity. In this case, the strength of circumstantial evidence played a major role in Roof’s conviction.

A hate crime is defined by the FBI as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.”

...In California, there were 837 hate crime incidents in 2015, up 10 percent from the previous year, according to a report from the California Department of Justice. California prosecuted 189 hate crime cases in 2015 (these crimes were not necessarily committed that year). When California issued its 2015 hate crime report, the state confirmed that of those 138 cases with final court rulings, less than half — 59 cases — resulted in hate crime convictions.
 
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ZNP

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I'll let the jury decide, and in their minds switch a black man for a white man. how would u react..?
This reminds me of the Aubrey thread we had a month or two ago. I emphasized in that thread that a person is innocent until proven guilty. If you are going to be on a jury they will ask you that question. If you say you disagree with that then you will not be allowed to be on the jury. On the other hand if you say you agree with that, vote to convict, and then the lawyer discovers threads on this or any other forum on the internet where you have already expressed bias and/or judging a person guilty without seeing all the evidence it will be the basis for an appeal. So how about asking your question in a way that is not obviously racist.
 
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ximmix

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This reminds me of the Aubrey thread we had a month or two ago. I emphasized in that thread that a person is innocent until proven guilty. If you are going to be on a jury they will ask you that question. If you say you disagree with that then you will not be allowed to be on the jury. On the other hand if you say you agree with that, vote to convict, and then the lawyer discovers threads on this or any other forum on the internet where you have already expressed bias and/or judging a person guilty without seeing all the evidence it will be the basis for an appeal. So how about asking your question in a way that is not obviously racist.

Hmm, not racist at all. Just mean, if it was a white man who endured this, the public outcry would be louder.

Edited to add, im sure u can question the video evidence like a good lawyer....
 
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