I SEE.......Anglicans believe only what they can see? I'll let your own members take you up on that one.
So, are you saying that only RC are Christian?
Nice try, but if I had said something like that, you'd be right to object. As you know, I didn't.
What I said, in effect, was that we all, as Christians, believe in the reality of much that is not visible to us. If you cannot accept that this is correct to say, please explain why.
Then I'm confused. If you don't believe in the invisible church (the church of all believers across all denominations) then what do you believe?
No...you equated the belief in the invisible church to the communion of saints....which is not a logical comparison since the cimmunity of saints has basis in Scripture and Tradition and the invisible church does not.
But who is able to discern the Holy Spirit?Okay, so we're in accord that the Spirit is given to believers. We're not left alone.
There is really very little difference between EO and RC. And no contradiction, at least to most Catholics. But you guys like to emphasize differences, so go be sidetracked.Does that mean only RC? Of course not, even your group recognizes EO as legitimate successors, even though EO and RC contradict each other at numerous doctrinal points (papacy for example). That in itself proves even RC (leadership) doesn't really believe Peter=Rock anymore; Unam Sanctum notwithstanding.
I'm interested to know, has the RCC given an infallible exegesis of these two passages? I'm honestly curious because I haven't heard of it. If so, can you provide a link please? Thanks!Regarding the topic, there is no possible refutation of what Jesus means when he speaks to Peter in Matt 16:18-20, in light of much of the NT. Unless your tradition ignores the words, as they often do with John 6.
Jesus builds His Church (ecclesia) upon the person of Peter. Jesus changes Simon's name to "Kepha," and says that on this "Kepha" He will build the Church. Kepha, in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), means a massive rock formation, and Jesus' use of Kepha to rename Peter signifies Peter's foundational leadership in the Church. (See also Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 where Jesus renames Simon "Cephas" which is a transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha."). Only the Catholic Church recognizes and proves through an unbroken lineage of successors that her foundation is Peter.
Jesus does not build it upon Peter.
Jesus builds His church on the confession Peter gives about who Jesus is.
So consider Jesus's church is built upon by those who confess Christ as Lord as it has been revealed to such persons by the Father in Heaven.
15 He said to them, But who do you say that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
The truth must be revealed to a person by the Trinity. Ignore the keys, they are to do with Peter's apostolic authority, not building the church.
The Lord Jesus builds His church, not Peter.
He builds the church when people believe in Him and confess Jesus as Christ of God.
That is a gift that comes from above from God by revelation.
Acts 2
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[h] daily those who were being saved.
Jesus builds His Church (ecclesia) upon the person of Peter. Jesus changes Simon's name to "Kepha," and says that on this "Kepha" He will build the Church. Kepha, in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), means a massive rock formation, and Jesus' use of Kepha to rename Peter signifies Peter's foundational leadership in the Church. (See also Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 where Jesus renames Simon "Cephas" which is a transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha."). Only the Catholic Church recognizes and proves through an unbroken lineage of successors that her foundation is Peter.
You noticed, I hope, that the final sentence in barry's statement above has no connection to the elaborate array of data that preceded it. This is because there is no connection between what Jesus said to Peter (however we want to interpret it) and the claims of hundreds of other men of later times claiming to be de facto inheritors of what Jesus said to Peter.Jesus does not build it upon Peter.
You noticed, I hope, that the final sentence in barry's statement above has no connection to the elaborate array of data that preceded it. This is because there is no connection between what Jesus said to Peter (however we want to interpret it) and the claims of hundreds of other men of later times claiming to be de facto inheritors of what Jesus said to Peter.
You noticed, I hope, that the final sentence in barry's statement above has no connection to the elaborate array of data that preceded it. This is because there is no connection between what Jesus said to Peter (however we want to interpret it) and the claims of hundreds of other men of later times claiming to be de facto inheritors of what Jesus said to Peter.
I'm interested to know, has the RCC given an infallible exegesis of these two passages? I'm honestly curious because I haven't heard of it. If so, can you provide a link please? Thanks!
Something like that. BUT it can't be argued that it's in the Bible passage (and that's what was being claimed). Whatever Jesus intended for Peter, the idea that he was to pass it on (and to whom?) is not part of the Scriptures. That is why, I assume, that barryatlake made that elaborate explanation of his understanding about Jesus giving Peter the keys etc. but couldn't connect it to the Papacy and so simply said , "Only the Catholic Church recognizes and proves through an unbroken lineage of successors that her foundation is Peter."I assume a catholic will say Peter builds the church being given authority the keys of binding and loosing. and believe in Apostolic succession...
I hear that from RCs, but seldom from EOs....and NEVER when the subject is this one!
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